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<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Very
interesting, Joe, and it may work. I can't help being a little concerned for
those libraries that do not have systems with the capability of reproducing
non-Roman alphabet characters. That's most of us, of course. Although I
could record Hebrew characters in signatures in both our electronic
catalog (VIRTUA), and on RLIN, I don't, out of deference to the majority of
libraries which do not have these capabilities. We use our Hebrew character
capabilities only for title and publisher/printer information, and then
only in tandem with transliterated fields. I also would wonder about
how to handle two of the Hebrew alphabet characters that have not been
assigned any equivalent in the Roman alphabet, according to the ALA-LC
Romanization tables. These cnaracters are breathings, rahther than stops,
and are noted only with superscript diacritical marks. This would likely
result in a totally unreadable signature count for many libraries whose systems
also have difficulty with diacritics from other systems. It appears that
the ALA romanized Russian alphabet also has a couple of such
characters. How would you handle hard and soft signs, or are they normally not
used in Russian printers' alphabets? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
agree that it might be helpful to distinguish in some way between upper and
lower case characters in signatures, assuming that a default would be given,
since, as I have already mentioned, Hebrew does not distinguish
between upper and lower case.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dan
Rettberg</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Rare
Book and Manuscript Bibliographer</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Klau
Library</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hebrew
Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Cincinnati, Ohio</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A
href="mailto:drettberg@huc.edu">drettberg@huc.edu</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=698021621-18012005> </SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Joseph Ross
[mailto:Joseph.T.Ross.40@nd.edu]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 17, 2005
12:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu; 'dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu';
thollis@library.berkeley.edu; auc1@psulias.psu.edu; ranelsen@library.ucsd.edu;
russell.363@osu.edu; ElizRob@alum.emory.edu; jfletchr@library.ucla.edu;
jane.gillis@yale.edu; roperj@wfu.edu; joeas@goshen.edu; jxa16@psulias.psu.edu;
juliet@ucrac1.ucr.edu; lcreider@lib.nmsu.edu; manon.theroux@yale.edu;
nschneider@nypl.org; rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu; robert_maxwell@byu.edu;
slsf@udel.edu; Stephen Skuce; Deborah J. Leslie<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[DCRM-L] : 7B9 Signatures in non-roman
alphabets<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Dan,<BR><BR>I would like to clarify my
recommendations for revision of the Delta version of DCRB(M). I am not
recommending using "Latin capitals for what would appear to be the closest
corresponding character within the alphabet employed for signatures" as you
wrote in your note below. I am recommending using a transliteration of
the letters in a non-Roman alphabet by using the ALA/LC transliteration tables
<B>when and only when one cannot record the letter in the original
script</B>. Catalog users should be familiar with the LC transliteration
tables, which are also being used for the titles and authors in the catalog
record. I want also to be able to distinguish upper and lower case in
the alphabet under consideration, where these alphabets allow such a
distinction. Signature notes will be meaningful only to bibliographers
and individuals interested in early printing. I think most of these
people are fairly well educated and will know that "g" is not the seventh
letter of the Greek, Hebrew or Cyrillic alphabet, and will look up a chart of
the alphabet if he/she does not know the alphabet.<BR><BR>I don't have an
objection to using the names for the Greek and Hebrew letters, but I would
prefer consistency, i.e., use the names for the Russian alphabet as
well. I think it is more work to record the names than to record the
transliteration of the letters. It also makes for a very long note when
one has a lengthy series of signatures. When one is recording the
pre-1917 Russian alphabet, I don't know if one can expect that catalog users
will be familiar enough with the names of letters that are no longer used in
the Russian alphabet. If one used the transliteration, the catalog user
could simply look up the transliteration table to find the letter that is
being transliterated. <BR><BR>My main objection, however, with the
delta version of DCRB(M) is the recommendation for signatures in
Russian, viz. record the signature as an Arabic numeral corresponding to the
number of gatherings. Early Russian books frequently do use the letters
of the Old Church Slavic alphabet for numbers. If one sees a
signature note in Arabic numerals, the natural assumption is that the
signatures are given in Old Church Slavic alphabetic numeration, not the
pre-1917 alphabet or the Old Church Slavic alphabet. One really has no
way of knowing what letters are indicated in the signature if one just records
the number of gatherings. One also loses the distinction between upper
and lower case alphabets and the number of series of the alphabets. Too
much is lost in this way of recording these signatures. After looking at
the complexity of the signatures in early Russian imprints, I am more
convinced of this than ever. We need to convey to people who have an
interest in early imprints how the signatures are given as precisely as
possible. I think we should transliterate the letters in all non-Roman
alphabet signatures when we cannot give the letters in the original
script. When the signatures are given by letters representing numbers,
then use Arabic numerals in brackets and indicate this in the qualification
after the word Signatures, i.e., Signatures (in Old Church Slavonic alphabetic
numeration) or Signatures (in Hebrew alphabetic numeration). <BR><BR>I hope
this clarifies my position, and I hope the committee will take these concerns
into account in their discussions of this rule.<BR><BR>Joe Ross<BR>Rare Books
Cataloger<BR>University of Notre Dame<BR><BR> At 03:01 PM 1/12/2005,
Rettberg, Dan wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face=arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Joseph--<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Thanks for coming at this problem from a different angle. I cannot
comment on Russian, since I don't know the language, and have only
occassionly dealt with it in alternative titles on Hebrew and Aramaic
Rabbinic texts. When necessary, I have enlisted my knowledge of the Greek
alphabet combined with the assistance of LC transliteration tables. I do
believe, however that the Delta draft makes too much of the use of Greek and
Latin characters for both letters and numbers. Trying to be too specific
here only makes life difficult for the cataloger. As I commented in my
earlier response, the one good thing about the approach seems to be in the
fact that it is worded in such a way as to allow the cataloger to determine
for him/herself when it is more advisable to use Arabic numerals and when
the transliterated forms of the names of the characters. If I understand
your suggestion below, however, you would like to use Latin capitals for
what would appear to be the closest corresponding character within the
alphabet employed for signatures. I think this could only confuse things
even more, even as you suggest that a non Greek or Hebrew reader might not
realize that "G" stands for the third letter of the Greek or Hebrew
alphabets, and not the seventh letter, as in the Roman alphabet. The more I
think about it, I'ld like to stay with my current practice, which is to
transliterate the names of Greek and Hebrew characters used for signatures,
and to place them within brackets. Presumably, "limping along" with the
assistance of the Greek alphabet and the LC transliteration tables, I would
do the same with Russian characters used as signatures, if I encountered
them.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dan
Rettberg<BR>Rare Book and Manuscript Bibliographer<BR>Klau Library<BR>Hebrew
Union College-Jewish Institute of Rellgion<BR>Cincinnati,
Ohio<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial color=#0000ff size=2><A
href="mailto:drettberg@huc.edu">drettberg@huc.edu</A><BR></FONT>
<DL>
<DD><FONT face=tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR>
<DD>From:</B> Joseph Ross [<A href="mailto:Joseph.T.Ross.40@nd.edu"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Joseph.T.Ross.40@nd.edu</A>]<BR>
<DD>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:34 PM<BR>
<DD>To:</B> dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu; DCRM-l@lib.byu.edu;
thollis@library.berkeley.edu; auc1@psulias.psu.edu;
ranelsen@library.ucsd.edu; russell.363@osu.edu; ElizRob@alum.emory.edu;
jfletchr@library.ucla.edu; jane.gillis@yale.edu; roperj@wfu.edu;
joeas@goshen.edu; jxa16@psulias.psu.edu; juliet@ucrac1.ucr.edu;
lcreider@lib.nmsu.edu; manon.theroux@yale.edu; nschneider@nypl.org;
rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu; robert_maxwell@byu.edu; slsf@udel.edu;
Stephen Skuce; Deborah J. Leslie<BR>
<DD>Subject:</B> Re: [DCRM-L] Discussion questions posted: 7B9 Signatures
in non-roman alphabets<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Deborah and list members,<BR><BR>
<DD>The question concerning non-roman alphabet signatures has not
generated much discussion here, and I regret that I cannot participate in
the discussion at the Midwinter meeting of BSC, but I wanted to offer a
few more remarks to my earlier comments.<BR><BR>
<DD>If one were to follow the draft suggestion for signatures in the
Russian alphabet, viz., using numerals to represent the gatherings,
how can one differentiate between upper and lower case? I do not know if
it is common in Russian early-imprints to differentiate between upper and
lower case in signatures or not and because the letters are so similar in
upper and lower case, it is probably not the case that upper and lower
case cyrillic letters are used in signatures the way they are in printing
in the Latin alphabet. I hope someone more knowledgeable in this
area could comment, but certainly we need to allow for such a
differentiation in other alphabets "without conventional names for the
letters" for which, it is being recommended, signatures would be recorded
as numerals.<BR><BR>
<DD>As I have mentioned in my e-mailed comments last week, I think the
best way of rendering these signaturesis in the original script and
for my own uses in our local database, I do that. Since we catalog
on OCLC, the Greek, Hebrew and Russian alphabets are not available for
insertion in the bibliographic records, and there I am reliant on
transliteration. My suggested revision would be: <BR><BR>
<DD>1) Give the letters in the original alphabet (as Bowers
recommends)<BR><BR>
<DD>2) Alternatively, where this is not possible, transliterate the
letters according to LC romanization.<BR><BR>
<DD>In the draft text, I would also like to recommend that where the
non-roman letters are used as numerals that this would be indicated by a
qualification after the word signatures, viz. Signatures (in Hebrew
alphabetic numeration) or Signatures (in Old Church Slavonic
alphabetic numeration) and the signatures could then be recorded as
the draft suggests by arabic numeration: 1-11 (superscript 4) or
whatever.<BR><BR>
<DD>Just one final note: having read the question on signatures as it is
formulated for discussion in your attachment, I myself cannot understand
how a statement: Signatures (in Greek) : A-G (superscript 6) could be
understood as anything other than three gatherings of 6 leaves. If
the signatures are in Greek (would it be better to say Greek alphabet),
how could G be the seventh letter? Someone not familiar with the
alphabets may need to get a chart of the alphabet, but I think one
could more easily figure out what the signatures are by transliterating
the letters than by using numeric notations.<BR><BR>
<DD> And personally, I do not see the need to write out the names of
the letters for Greek, Hebrew or Arabic even though these have been given
special treatment by using the names of the letters rather than the
transliteration of the letter or its numeric place in the
alphabet.<BR><BR>
<DD>Again, I hope others will comment on this, and I would like to learn
the result of any discussion at the midwinter meeting.<BR><BR>
<DD>Thanks for your attention,<BR><BR>
<DD>Joseph Ross<BR>
<DD>Rare Books Cataloger<BR>
<DD>University of Notre Dame<BR><BR><BR>
<DD>At 04:34 PM 1/7/2005, Deborah J. Leslie wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD>Discussion questions for the Bibliographic Standards Committee
meeting in Boston next week are now linked from the DCRM(B) draft main
page, in a Microsoft Word version and an HTML version. A record of
the discussion will be contained in the minutes for this meeting; I'll
make an announcement when it's posted, a month or two after the meeting.
DCRM-L subscribers not attending the BSC meeting are encouraged to
engage in an online discussion of the questions or other concerns.<BR>
<DD><BR>
<DD><FONT color=#610095><A
href="http://www.folger.edu/bsc/dcrb/dcrmtext.html">http://www.folger.edu/bsc/dcrb/dcrmtext.html</A><BR></FONT>
<DD><BR>
<DD>________________________________<BR><BR>
<DD>Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S.<BR>
<DD>Head of Cataloging<BR>
<DD>Folger Shakespeare Library<BR>
<DD>201 East Capitol St., SE<BR>
<DD>Washington, DC 20003<BR>
<DD>202.675-0369<BR>
<DD><A href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu">djleslie@folger.edu</A><BR>
<DD><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> <BR>
<DD> </DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>