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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'"><SPAN class=974042917-11082005><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">Many thanks to Stephen Skuce, who took these verbatim
notes at the DCRM(B) public hearing in Chicago on 25 June 2005. I hope this
document will serve as a springboard for further discussion.
--DJL</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'"><SPAN class=974042917-11082005><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'"><SPAN class=974042917-11082005><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">____________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN> </P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">Initials = Names </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja
= <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
/><st1:PersonName><?xml:namespace prefix = st2 ns = "urn:schemas:contacts"
/><st2:GivenName>John</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Attig</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Virginia</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Bartow</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ac
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Ann</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Copeland</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">cc
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Charles</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Croissant</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">lc
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Larry</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Creider</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jd
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Jackie</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Dooley</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Jane</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Gillis</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">djl
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Deborah</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Leslie</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jl
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>James</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Larrabee</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jm
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Juliet</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>McLaren</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">km
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Kate</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Moriarty</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rm
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Robert</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Maxwell</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">rn=<st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Richard</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Noble</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">es
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Elaine</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Shiner</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ecs
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>E.C.</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Schroeder</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">mt
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Manon</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Theroux</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">pw
= <st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Penny</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Welbourne</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">At
<st1:time Hour="17" Minute="10">5:10 p.m.</st1:time>,
<st2:GivenName>Deborah</st2:GivenName> (djl) addressed the room, gave history
and background of the development of DCRM(B). <SPAN
class=974042917-11082005>[See <A
href="http://www.folger.edu/bsc/dcrb/publichearingintro.html">http://www.folger.edu/bsc/dcrb/publichearingintro.html</A>]
</SPAN>Approximately 10 minutes later, she asked for questions and
comments.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Richard</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Noble</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (rn): A commendation, particularly for
the provisions that allow for the change in relationships within the trade in
printed books in the 19th century.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>The difference was not necessarily limited to hand press vs. machine
press; the evolution reflected differences in responsibilities and financial
channels of the trade, often disconnected from machine vs. hand
press.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Elaine</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Shiner</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (es): Question about the option to
record "double punctuation." How does DCRM(B) handle a date on the t.p. that is
followed by a period?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>How does the
260 look? Is there a double period?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: Transcribe it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Might ISBD be disappearing with RDA in any case?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>John</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Attig</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (ja): Developers of RDA are still
deciding whether it will/won't continue to prescribe ISBD punctuation.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Those of us developing DCRM(B) have been
very aware, all along, of the 2 not-quite-parallel processes occurring here, and
the Bibliographic Standards Committee (BSC) made a decision early on that the
AACR2 revision process was proceeding too slowly to inform its DCRM(B)
development process.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There likely
will, however, be follow-up for DCRM(B) once the AACR2/RDA process is
complete.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: Bear in mind that retention of original punctuation
is a separate issue from the application (or not) of ISBD.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: New topic: DCRM(B) marks a departure from DCRB
regarding the separation (or not) of ligatures into separate letters.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>AACR2 says to separate all.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The LCRI makes an exception for French,
for the oe/ae in Scandinavian languages, and Anglo-Saxon. BSC asked why. How
does transcribing ligatures fit with the whole transcription process? Why the
exception for certain languages?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">The
editorial team consulted modern French dictionaries,
<st2:GivenName>Allen</st2:GivenName>'s Manual.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Result: Only in Danish and Norwegian did
it appear that digraphs are actually different characters than, with different
meanings from, for example, the letters "a e."</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
There are two considerations here. The main thing is the question of how
languages in the Latin alphabet are affected by filing rules. Composite
characters file differently. The other consideration: though we already depart
from AACR2 transcription (e.g., with i/j and u/v), and then add "filing titles"
in the 246, we may want to minimize departures from AACR2 during this
already-mentioned period of co-evolution of the two documents (RDA and DCRM(B)).
Should we work to reduce instances in which interoperability between old and new
records is a question? rn's recommendation: follow the LCRI, simplify the
transcription.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Virginia</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Bartow</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (vb): There are retrieval issues. The
ascii value of a ligature is not the same as 2 separated letters. In title
browse and author/title browse, there can be a large separation between, say, an
early edition and a newer edition depending on how the ligature has been
treated. Collocation in certain indexes may be lost.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So we should transcribe in a manner that
approaches quasi-facsimile, but add tracings without the ligature, to match up
later editions with earlier.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
Individual systems handle this differently; most have a table of equivalents.
They're less careful for sorting purposes, perhaps. We hate to design rules
based on what a typical system currently does. And then, Unicode will raise the
same issues, exponentially.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb:
Might BSC prepare a planning statement for systems?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
There are some such things currently on the table at MARBI. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Charles</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Croissant</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (cc): How are we to transcribe the
Ess-Szet? It wasn't available to us before, so we used 2 s's [the letter "s"
repeated]. But with unicode?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: Sounds like an argument FOR separating
ligatures!</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>James</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Larrabee</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (jl): The LCRI exceptions really had
more to do with print styles. The oe/ae digraphs were used universally till
1800, but their usage had fallen away by the late 19th century. In French, on
the other hand, it's still the current style. Scandinavian languages, I don't
know.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If style is the thing, that
should be the basis for any decision.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: [Noted the Oedipus dilemma (separated in English,
not in French)]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Is the LCRI based on a long history, perhaps of following the Bibliotheque
nationale? "Let's not offend the French"?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Juliet</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>McLaren</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (jl): The British used, sometimes
still use, Latin medical terms with ae/oe digraphs [there followed a roomwide
attempt to name such terms]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Are we looking at pure typographical treatment, or orthography? </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb:
Are we looking at attempts to retain or represent a given font in our
transcription? No.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
In English, ae/oe and the split versions are interchangeable for filing
purposes.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
That's a favorable argument for faithful transcription.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Larry</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Creider</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (lc): What about the same edition in
Latin, different states?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb
(almost interrupting) Exactly, piracies for example. How do we bring this out in
cataloging?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Given the relative crudity of our transcription, why worry about this at
all.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Jane</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Gillis</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (jg): The LCRI comes from the ms.
tradition. [Cites AMREMM, noting it is a "Bib Standards publication"]. So are we
part of this or something else? There seem to be lots of things pointing us in
that direction, there's weight behind it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Robert</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Maxwell</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (rm): Will we always be using the
AACR2 rules? Is there a REASON to do it, if we were starting over? "We've always
done it" is not a good reason.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
This was not even brought up during AMREMM discussions.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jl:
It's a transcription issue and a style issue. We have different styles of
dealing with capitalization, digraph usage in English vs. French, for
example.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">lc:
I'm not in<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>favor of breaking them
all out in general. [something unclear in notes about "current system" -- I'm
not sure if <st2:GivenName>Larry</st2:GivenName> meant DCRB or an online
system--SS]. And, speaking of AMREMM and the ms. discussion, we normalize
spelling with ms. because the spelling is all over the place. Digraph?
Subscript? It can be very hard to tell.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: That of course is not the case with printed
materials. It's time for a straw poll.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Vote for:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">1.
Separate all digraphs and ligatures</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">2.
Transcribe all digraphs as digraphs</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">3.
Only transcribe as digraphs Danish, Norwegian, (Anglo-Saxon if appropriate,
TBD)</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">4.
Keep things as is: follow DCRB and the LCRI (separate all Scandinavian and
French and Anglo-Saxon if appropriate)</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[Results:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">1 =
5</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">2 =
2</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">3 =
12</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">4 =
15]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: DCRM(B) instructs the cataloger to transcribe Roman
numeral dates as <st2:GivenName>Roman</st2:GivenName> numerals, as a coherent
extension of faithful transcription. This was not controversial in Bib
Standards, but what do people here think?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Note that we transcribe just digits, not spaces or periods. Anyone
opposed?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[Response: combination of silence and audible,
enthusiastic "No" from audience.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: There was a great deal of fussing at the DCRM
conference re: the publication, distribution, etc. area in order to deal with
how different imprint information is in machine press publications.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The editors then worked hard to devise a
single set of rules for ALL relationships between publishers, printers,
manufacturers.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One result is a
fairly long discussion at the beginning of 4A6.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What do people feel about it?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
I haven't looked at the justification.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>The main thing is that previously, 19th century information had been
confined to a note.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Note
information is not treated the same by systems as information in the 260. Now we
can include in that field information that may, for example, be indexed as
publication information. This is a tremendous advantage.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: Did anyone read 4a6 all the way through?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Annie</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Copland</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (ac): Yes. You have to hold on tight,
but it really works.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st2:GivenName>Kate</st2:GivenName> [Moriarty?]: It's
brilliant.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's clear and helpful.
Don't change it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb:
I hope we're not confusing primacy with the number of names?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The printer had to reduce the type size
for, say, 3 printers and one publisher. Are we reading into, e.g., legal
requirements mandating the publisher's name on the t.p.?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What about vanity works? The publisher
is vague. In job work, the printer's name is tiny. Depending so much on
typographic prominence gives me the heebie jeebies.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>19th century typographic stuff comes
into it, attempts to fit things on the page.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
We face a choice here. "Subordinate" publishers (for example, those not in
<st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, or those acting as agents)
may in fact be subordinate [but may not be? unclear to note-taker]. We only have
260 $a and $b to deal with hem.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It
really has more to do with the bibliographical habits of historians ... we put
information on the same level [i.e. $a $b) when printer and seller are operating
at same level.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We've put them
together because in the hand press period there was too much fuzz, and it's
appropriate.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There will continue to
be judgment involved.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You can tell
when a publisher is saying, "this is my book".<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's different with stereotypers.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But it's still the same issue:
production vs. dissemination.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
I see a problem with page 60. What if it's the Office of the Governor?
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: The new provision takes care of that.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[NOTE: it became very difficult to keep up with, and
more important, even to follow some of the following exchange.
sorry--SS]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Government publications are published by, and are a product of, a corporate
body.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
But the imprint: it's printed by someone, say the state or city publishes
something from the Waterworks of San Francisco: to say that the Waterworks is
the actual publisher, put it in brackets, when the t.p. has a definite imprint,
that should be transcribed as an imprint. That's sufficient. [?]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
[We could? we couldn't?] do without the paragraph beginning, "However ..."
[?]<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One of the strengths of this
is: evidence: what's on the piece? There's a tension between recording
information for identifying the item, and recording factual information which
may have nothing to do with what you see. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
If an imprint appears in the regular imprint area, don't you record it as
publisher? Because for government publications, I'd have to bracket the
Waterworks in <st1:City><st1:place>San
Francisco</st1:place></st1:City>.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jm:
You don't plunk what you know to be true in the middle of a transcription
area.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
Yes you do.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
It's a mixed field. It contains mostly information extracted from the piece, but
it's still a mixed process. You must exercise judgment: to assert the facts of
publication, is it sufficient to put the truth in a note?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Jackie</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Dooley</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (jd): 4A6 is indeed a slog, but once
you've read it, it's really, really clear. It's very logical.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">es:
This codifies the way many of us now actually work. It's good.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rm:
What about replacing the "However ..." paragraph with "Optionally
..."?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: [Expresses some jocular anger at jg: this was done
at her bequest. Reference to railroad schedules]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
I think it works. I want to use it when I have a pamphlet with no real t.p.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But with a real t.p. that says "Printed
by" in an imprint area: it's put out that way for a certain reason.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jd:
Don't make this optional.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You
already have the option to surmise.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rm:
The rules are the rules. If you know something to be true, you must record it.
That's why it wouldn't make sense to make it optional.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: I see 3 options, as follows:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">1.
Drop the paragraph entirely, say nothing about "reasonably surmising" the
publishing agent</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">2.
Keep the paragraph as written</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">3.
Keep something like it, but distinguish, per
<st2:GivenName>Jane</st2:GivenName>'s concerns, the freedom to insert/supply the
publisher</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: (in response to a vague comment): No, we will not
add the "optional" phrasing to this vote.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[Results:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">1 =
0</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">2 =
12</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">3 =
17]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>E.C.</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Schroeder</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (ecs): The Bib Standards members all
voted to keep it as it is!</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: We will consider whether a different, or an
additional, example will do it [in response to a statement noting failure to
understand the example, because of its unfortunate line break]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Manon</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Theroux</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (mt): [Asked of jg]: Is it strictly
government publications that are problems? When the information is on the t.p.
or somewhere else?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
It's a problem generally with self-publication. The poet issued a book of his
own work, and the printer simply jobbed it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
The manufacturer is working for the author or body that's promulgating this
thing. The author as publisher is a reach in some cases, not in
others.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">es:
If you are reaching or guessing, you don't have to do it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
Something printed in <st1:City><st1:place>St. Louis</st1:place></st1:City>, by
the newspaper. But put that into a manufacturer area, and bracket in the St.
Louis Waterworks, and [unintelligible]. The publication presents itself in an
uncertain way, and we have to take that into consideration.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: [Ending the discussion and beginning a new topic]:
The issue of transcribing copyright statements vs. just summarizing them when
there is no publication date. DCRB now follows AACR2; use the copyright as the
date with "c."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But we want to hold
firm with transcribing the date area, not silently changing these data.
Thoughts? Do you agree that the copyright date should be [more fully]
transcribed?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">cc[?]: The copyright symbol as well as the word
copyright spelled out? "Copyright c1982" looks funny.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: What about using "sic" as we do
elsewhere?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">lc:
It's no more an error than a printer name plus a printer's device.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[several voices]: But we don't transcribe a printer's
device.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[brief yapping about the meaning of "sic"]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
This opens a can of worms.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Copyright information often provides information of a different kind
about the genesis of the text.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It
is often entirely separate from the actual production and dissemination of the
piece. "Copyright 1881" in a 1905 edition. It's probably better to bail, and
retain the practice of defaulting to a second standard with the option of a note
quoting the copyright statement.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">es:
What does rn mean?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
I'm saying we should continue the practice of "c1966" as in ordinary AACR2
practice because the information does not always present itself well.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is extracted information, very
distant from the notion of imprint.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">ecs: [agrees with
<st2:GivenName>richard</st2:GivenName>].<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>If it's important, put it in a note. We're not gaining enough by
transcribing it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: How do we justify not transcribing in a
transcription area?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
I would put c1966 all in brackets; this says you've normalized it.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Look at normal bibliographic practice. It's just not done. [Unclear: "it adds
information regarding the possible date of issue" [?]]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: [expresses firm opposition to silent normalization
in a transcription field]: When we've used DCRB for such materials, we've
bracketed the copyright date and added a note with the actual
transcription.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
For purposes of $c in the 260, it is not imprint information at all.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's different altogether. You can infer
information from it, but all information from it IS inferential.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: It is a transcription field.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We don't normalize there.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
But copyright is different.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: But silent normalization is wrong.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Follow AACR2. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">lc:
We have a tradition of not regarding the imprint as necessarily a pure
transcription field, especially the date, which explains the
<st2:GivenName>Roman</st2:GivenName> numerals in DCRB.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There have been problems all along. If
we try it we'll likely go back to redo it when we revise these rules yet
again.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It can help for
identification of states and issues, whatever. But I remember an LC statement:
"don't worry about consistency in this area."</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
Do you express copyright by the symbol or not? is the question. But remember,
this area is for date of publication, and a copyright date is NOT a publication
date. You can record it as evidence, sure. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb:
I'm working on <st2:Sn>Longfellow</st2:Sn> now. The copyright date is clearly
and demonstrably not the publication date of volume 1 of the set. I infer the
[actual publication] date, and leave it at that [i.e., she does not record the
misleading copyright date]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
But we are trying to preserve transcription. The fact that it isn't a date of
publication gives you permission to put it in a note.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">es:
We do treat the date as transcription.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Copyright statements are about registration, not publication. It may be good, or
it may be misleading, data for determining the publication date. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: Another poll. The options are:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">1.
Leave text as it is, and work out some difficult issues</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">2.
Silently normalize copyright data when there's no publication date (the AACR2
rule)</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">3.
Drop out any instruction regarding copyright dates in this element. Only record
the publication date, whether actual or inferred.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[Results:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">1 =
3</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">2 =
8</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">3 =
18]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">mt:
That isn't compatible with DCRB, another consideration informing the
construction of these rules.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rm:
Is there a "rare books" reason for treating this differently [than AACR
does]?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">es:
In modern publications, the copyright and publication dates are usually pretty
close.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[Muttering in the room: Not really!]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
Again, it's just not a publication date: it's evidence of the history of the
text. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jg:
I voted for #3, but I still think copyright has to be addressed. What about the
notes area?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">ja:
Add something regarding "how to conjecture"?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">lc:
There's a fundamental problem with what AACR2 is doing. We can lead the way. The
evidence for current practice is weak. Every year, there's an Autocat discussion
along the lines of, "It's July 2005, what do I do with this c2006 book?"
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rm:
That's because they faithfully transcribe.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">vb:
Recording all these copyright dates doesn't help with
<st2:Sn>Longfellow</st2:Sn>, for example. I now have 5 "title issues" and all
are identical except for the t.p.; they're from the same
stereoplates.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"><st1:PersonName><st2:GivenName>Penny</st2:GivenName>
<st2:Sn>Welbourne</st2:Sn></st1:PersonName> (pw): What about bracketing a
copyright date, but adding a 500 note? </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jd:
This concerns being required to record copyright dates that are just printings.
Go back to the DCRM(B) introductory matter, under precataloging decisions.
Number 4: exercise judgment, and be consistent.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">jl:
Throwing out the copyright is OK, but if your only basis for a bracketed date IS
the copyright date, and if you have a reasonably strong copyright date, why not
put it in the 260?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: (ending discussion): Now for another departure from
DCRB: we are no longer treating engraved title pages as leaves of text. It had
been treated as text, not a plate. See rule 5B9. The physical extent should
reflect the physical structure of the book.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[scattered applause]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">rn:
It will be difficult. It is possible to provide gaps in numeration of
letterpress, for example, leaving space for plates to be inserted. But this is a
more faithful transcription.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">djl: Are there strong feelings for privileging engraved
title pages as leaves of text?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">[general noise signifying "no."]</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">At
<st1:time Hour="7" Minute="5">7:05</st1:time>, djl thanked the
audience.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">The
editors were applauded loudly and long.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS">
</FONT></SPAN></P>
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face="Arial Unicode MS"> </FONT></o:p></P>
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face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN> </P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S.<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Palatino Linotype'"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">Head of Cataloging<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
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face="Arial Unicode MS">Folger Shakespeare Library<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
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