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A lot of great ideas are starting to fly around but I think we're
getting a little ahead of ourselves in terms of what we think/hope that
ILSs can do. (UC Berkeley is only now implementing its first ever ILS
and I can tell you that our present system would *never* be able to
link the 510 in one record to the 524 in another.) I think petitioning
MARBI for inclusion of a subfield for a URL in the 510 is a good idea;
I also think routinely adding a 524 field to the bib records for the
resources themselves is also a good idea (along with getting a $2 code
defined for SCF). Postponing the revision of
SCF until we can get the 510 and 524 to link to each other is, I think,
not a good idea. Everyone agrees that fuller citations are better than
brief ones.<br>
<br>
I have proposed that the SCF revision team (which is still in the
process of being formed) begin the task of verifying the existing SCF
citations in terms of AACR2. <br>
<br>
For ALA Midwinter, I would like to see a proposal to MARBI for a
subfield code for a URL in the 510. If anyone has experience making
MARBI proposals and would like to volunteer, please let me know.<br>
<br>
I will work with the SCF revision team on getting a $2 code established
for the 524. <br>
<br>
Randal Brandt<br>
Chair, RBMS Bibliographic Standards Committee<br>
<br>
Elizabeth Robinson wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:978663.12129.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">It's not a bad idea at all, Nina and Bob, but the issue of the hour about it is how does a 524 index in our various databases and how would a 524 interact with a 510?
I think ideally we would want (this is pie-in-the-sky thinking probably) the "ignorant" patron to be able to click on the 510 of Title X and some how be directed to (or have a second window open with) the bib record of the resource, based on some sort of automatic link between the 510 in Title X's bib record and the 524 in the bibliography's bib record.
The clicking on the 510 in Title X's bib probably would have to generate a command keyword search (or Expert search as ExLibris/Voyager is calling it now) on 524s. Similar in other ILS systems.
We can ask our various institutional ILS/systems offices and vendors what is doable.
Do we want to do that? I can certainly start with LC's ILS office. We are an ExLibris/Voyager shop, as most/all of you probably know. What are the other systems? Innovative, Dynix, ??, ?? I know they've been gobbling each other up, and I have not been paying the best attention to who remains. Anyway, perhaps we can do some representative research with all the current ILS systems to see what is viable.
How do others feel about this approach that Nina and Bob have offered? Basically (if it can work technologically) we would be retaining our current citation forms as they are but routinely adding 524s to the resources' bib records.
Also, if this is how we proceed, would we want to continue to create new forms with the current working principles or with the new proposal of fuller citations? In other words, grandfather the current list and make 524s to assist the patron with those but (for the future) create new citations that are fuller?
Elizabeth A. Robinson
Team Leader
Rare Book Cataloging Team
Special Materials Cataloging Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Avenue SE, mailstop 4376
Washington, DC 20540-4376
(202)707-3408 (work)
(202)707-2453 (fax)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:erob@loc.gov">erob@loc.gov</a> (email)
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are strictly my own
and not necessarily those of the Library of Congress.
--- On Wed, 9/10/08, Robert Maxwell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu"><robert_maxwell@byu.edu></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Robert Maxwell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu"><robert_maxwell@byu.edu></a>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] ESTC and the revision of SCF
To: "DCRM Revision Group List" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu"><dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu></a>
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 7:41 PM
Good idea! It would be great if the OCLC master record for
as many of these as possible had the citation form embedded
in it. And as new ones came up if the first person to use it
in a 510 added a 524 to the master record for the
bibliography the rest of us who come along later could use
the same form in our records. I think it would greatly
enhance standardization of these forms.
In case people want to do this, I urge the authors of the
new Standard Citations to get a code for Standard Citations
listed for subfield 2 of 524 ("source of schema
used") (see
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.loc.gov/marc/relators/relaothr.html#rela524b">http://www.loc.gov/marc/relators/relaothr.html#rela524b</a>). Is
the group working on this thinking of doing that? I hope you
will. The field would look something like
524 Cioranescu, A. 18. s. $2 scf [or whatever the code
winds up being]
That way if there were some other citation form wanted for
the bibliography in addition to Standard Citations (maybe
this is some sort of medical bibliography and the NLM
recommended format for bibliographic citation is also
wanted) the field could be repeated with whatever citations
styles are wanted.
By the way, I notice none of the codes listed at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.loc.gov/marc/relators/relaothr.html#rela524b">http://www.loc.gov/marc/relators/relaothr.html#rela524b</a> are
for archival citation styles, so the field is clearly being
used beyond the archival community.
Bob
Robert L. Maxwell
Head, Special Collections and Metadata Catalog Dept.
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568
-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Schneider,
Nina
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:12 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ElizRob@alum.emory.edu">ElizRob@alum.emory.edu</a>; DCRM Revision Group List
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] ESTC and the revision of SCF
This also reminds me that Erin Blake of the Folger Library
suggested (or maybe it was a question ... this was a few
years ago at an ALA meeting) including a 524 note (Preferred
Citation of Described Materials) in the bib record of
standard reference sources, especially titles in Standard
Citation Forms. For example: Alexandre Cioranescu's
Bibiographie de la litterature francaise du dix-hititeme
siecle would look like this:
100 1_ Cioranescu, Alexandre
245 10 Bibliographie de la littérature française du
dix-huitième siècle ...
524 Cioranescu, A. 18. s.
I know that the 524 is meant for manuscript
materials/archival collections, but it seems to me that this
is an elegant solution, especially if the 524 is
searchable.
+-------
Nina Schneider
Head Cataloger
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library
2520 Cimarron Street
Los Angeles, CA 90018
323-731-8529
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>
-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Robinson
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 2:57 PM
To: DCRM Revision Group List
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] ESTC and the revision of SCF
I meant to also respond to Nina's suggestion for a
510$u for URL links. It is actually MARBI that would approve
such, although LC always has an opinion on all MARBI
proposals (so would definitely chime in).
Nina's suggestion of a subfield for URL info leads me
to wonder if we might also want to consider a subfield for
these acronyms we still want to keep and input along with
the full title. Richard's last examples could be (making
up a subfield):
510 4_ $z ESTC $a (English short title catalogue) 510 4_ $z
ISTC $a (Incunabula short-title catalogue)
Or maybe repeat the subfield $a (not possible now):
510 4_ $a ESTC $a (English short title catalogue) 510 4_ $a
ISTC $a (Incunabula short-title catalogue)
That might be exceedingly valuable from an indexing and/or
maintenance POV.
We can consider various punctuation too (doesn't have
to be parentheses). E.g.:
510 4_ $a ESTC: $a English short title catalogue 510 4_ $a
ISTC: $a Incunabula short-title catalogue
Whatever we think will display to the public in an
intelligible manner.
Elizabeth A. Robinson
Team Leader
Rare Book Cataloging Team
Special Materials Cataloging Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Avenue SE, mailstop 4376 Washington, DC
20540-4376
(202)707-3408 (work)
(202)707-2453 (fax)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:erob@loc.gov">erob@loc.gov</a> (email)
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are strictly my own and
not necessarily those of the Library
--- On Wed, 9/10/08, Schneider, Nina
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu"><nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Schneider, Nina
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu"><nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] ESTC and the revision of SCF
To: "DCRM Revision Group List"
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu"><dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 11:27 AM
Richard just gave me an idea:
Why couldn't we include a URL to those citations
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">that
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">are online? I'm
sure we could petition LC to include subfield u (or
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">another
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">appropriate
subfield) in a 510, so that folks who don't know
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">what
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ESTC, Wing, etc.
could just hit the link to take them to the resource.
Of course, the problem is that many of these
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">reference
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">sources are not
online, but we could take advantage of the ones that
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">are.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Nina
+-------
Nina Schneider
Head Cataloger
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library
2520 Cimarron Street
Los Angeles, CA 90018
323-731-8529
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>
-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>] On
Behalf Of Noble, Richard
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:10 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu">rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu</a>; DCRM Revision Group
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">List
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] ESTC and the revision of SCF
In an ideal world, the 510 field would function as in
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">ISTC,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">with its
choice of expanded or condensed references to
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">accommodate
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">those in the
know and those not--and those who need a reminder.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">SCF
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">would be the
underlying public and technical reference database,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">not
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">just another
proprietary professional grimoire.
The market we address necessarily includes (as Donald
Farren rather ...
sternly reminded us) users who may have reason to
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">consult
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">resources
outside fields in which they are expert at the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">acronymic
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">level. In most
cases it is possible to provide an author keyword or
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">two
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">and enough of
the title (without abbreviations and over-concern
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">about
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">length) to
indicate the nature of the reference and to serve as
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">the
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">basis for a
reasonably precise catalog/database search.
"Adams" and "Evans" and
"Sabin" really must give way to something a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">bit
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">more self-explanatory
and less likely to produce about 112,000,000 Google
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">hits
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">(result from
search on "evans"). These traditional
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">citations
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">may unite the
cognoscenti who receive the posher sale catalogs, but
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">they
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">separate us
even from our colleagues the next desk over.
In such cases as ESTC or ISTC, surely we can extend
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">this
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">principle to
formulate the reference as, e.g. "English short
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">title
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">catalogue (ESTC)"
or "Incunabula short-title catalogue
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">(ISTC)",
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">both of which phrases I
just cut, pasted, and lower-cased from those websites.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">(And
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">since it's
possible in some such cases, we might encourage the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">use of
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the 856 field
or other linking device(s) to take users to the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">database,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">or even the
particular entry.)
There will be work involved in revising catalog
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">records,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">though I
suspect that many (most?) institutions that make use
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">of
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">such references
can globally update phrases in specific fields (MARC
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">hath
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">yet its uses).
I do believe that it would be worth the effort, if
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">only to
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">preserve a
little longer our ability to provide this information
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">at
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">all, in the
face of those who urge us to "get over
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">ourselves"
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">and, I guess, throw
over our more educated users.
RICHARD NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN HAY
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">LIBRARY :
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">BROWN
UNIVERSITY PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">863-2093
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU">RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
__________________________
Randal Brandt
Principal Cataloger
The Bancroft Library
(510) 643-2275
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu">rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bancroft.berkeley.edu">http://bancroft.berkeley.edu</a>
"It's hard enough to remember my opinions without
remembering my reasons for them"--The Streets.
</pre>
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