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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Thanks to Richard and Deborah, who have
staked out the two basic positions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>What I’d <i><span style='font-style:
italic'>really</span></i> like to be able to do is use the old “incl.”
here: “xii, [13]-281, [1] p. incl. plates” <or perhaps “(incl.
[2] leaves of plates)”>, with a note making clear where and what the
plates are.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>But since I can’t do that, I lean
toward Deborah’s inclination; I’ve always felt that a pagination
statement that gives as concise a sense of the extent as possible (and I know
it’s not always possible) is desirable. (For instance, “100
[i.e. 104] p.” with a note that numbers 79-82 are repeated in the paging,
rather than ESTC’s “82, 79-100 p.”) Of course the
details must be spelled out, but even in a bibliographic description (rather
than a catalogue record) I’d like an overview as well (though since a
statement of leaves typically follows the signature collation, perhaps that’s
enough of an overview).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>It would seem that it was clearly the
intent of whoever was responsible for designing the volume I’m working on
that the plates be counted in the pagination, and though the designer’s
(author’s, printer’s, binder’s) intent need not dictate an
analytical description, it carries some weight, and must be somewhere
described. In a catalogue record, I’d rather see it in the
formulaic statement of pages, with the analysis carried out in the note.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>In Richard’s example, it doesn’t
seem that the plates actually exactly correspond to the missing page numbers
(and if the pagination ends with an odd number on a verso, there’s
something else to be sorted out), but I’d still be more inclined to state
“[8], 111 [i.e. 62], [2] p. and then lay out the details in a note –
but perhaps the statement of leaves provides as much of an overview as needed –
so I won’t push that too far.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Seriously, though, what would be wrong with
bringing back “incl.” – usage carefully defined – for
such situations (mine, not Richard’s – i.e., where the missing
letterpress pages are exactly supplied by the plates)? It would always
require an explanatory note, but it would allow a concise and clear statement
of the situation in the “statement of text” (or whatever “the
first part of the statement of extent” ends up being called).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>I’ll be away for the next two and a
half weeks, with no access to e-mail (or highly intermittent at best), so I won’t
be able to respond to further comments until early April.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>John Lancaster (<a
href="mailto:jlancaster@amherst.edu">jlancaster@amherst.edu</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font size=3
color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>P.O.
Box</span></font></st1:Street><font color=blue><span style='color:blue'> 775</span></font></st1:address><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Williamsburg</span></font></st1:City><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'>, <st1:State w:st="on">MA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">01096-0775</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>413-268-7679</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Deborah J. Leslie<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 17, 2009 1:55
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [DCRM-L] Pagination
includes plates</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#5c4676" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#5C4676'>I was a little
surprised not to see this addressed in DCRM(B), because I remember discussing
this exact problem in the context of fully incorporating the 19c and later into
the rules. The popularity of lithography, especially chromolithography, in the
19c means there are lots of books out there with plates incorporated into the
pagination. Now that I think about it, it may have been discussed at the 2003
DCRMB working conference, but then forgotten and so never made it into the
text. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#5c4676" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#5c4676" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#5C4676'>My inclination is
opposite of Richard's for a library catalog record. Not that I wouldn't agonize
all over again should I have to catalog such a volume, but it seems cleaner and
more comprehensible to include the plates in the statement of text*, and make a
note specifying which page numbers are in fact plates. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#5c4676" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#5c4676" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#5C4676'>*I think I'll write
a separate email on this, but by "statement of text" I mean the first
part of the statement of extent. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#5c4676" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Richard Noble<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 17 March, 2009
01:50<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [DCRM-L] Pagination
includes plates<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I agonized about this for
a while, then decided that the principle that trumps all is the strictest
possible separation in the treatment of letterpress and plates, the final test
being a proper correlation between the pagination statement and the collational
formula. The printer's method of numbering, and degree of success or failure in
following it, are secondary to the integrity of the structural description.<br>
<br>
It's messy--i.e. you'll need to do some explaining--no matter what you do, but
it always seemed more confusing, and to require more complicated explanation,
if I tried to treat the plates and the letterpress leaves as an integrated
sequence.<br>
<br>
A good example (or ill, depending on whether or not you think this is the
correct approach) is no. 101 in the Malkin catalogue, <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Dancing by the Book</span></i> (in Amherst Coll.
special collections GV1643.M36 2003), where the formula (minus diacritics and
with superscripts lowered) is:<br>
<br>
8o: engr. ti. + a4 A-D8 [$4 (-a2,3,4, A4) signed]; 36 leaves, pp. [<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>8</span></i>] 1-12 17-28 31-34 39-40 49-52 55-56
59-60 63-64 74-77 80-81 84-85 94-103 108-111 <i><span style='font-style:italic'>112-113</span></i>
[=64] + plates, ff. [<i><span style='font-style:italic'>6</span></i>], pp. [<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>58</span></i>]<br>
<br>
Of this it is noted, "The first part consists of the engraved title page
followed by a letterpress text into which 35 leaves of numbered engraved plates
have been inserted. The gaps in the letterpress page count allow for these
numbered plates, though the result is not perfect ...", followed by a
couple of yards of discursive goose chase through the vagaries of numbering and
occasionally misnumbering plates to fit into letterpress gaps. I think it's
much better to reserve such crankiness for the notes and keep the formula
clean: 72 pages ([64] + <i><span style='font-style:italic'>8</span></i>) = 36
leaves of letterpress, with just this gappy pagination. The letterpress is
quite simple, and it helps immensely to establish that up front as the
background to the more complicated story of the plates.<br>
<br>
It's quite possible that a case where the numberings line up properly would fit
well enough into a single pagination register, but I prefer to have a good
general rule that can handle the harder cases and still not make too much of a
mess of the simpler ones. The dance books demanded a lot of this sort of
extrapolation from WWBD ("What Would Bowers Do"), since Bowers never
dealt with books of this sort; but I think that Bowers had it right about
making plates and letterpress stand in opposite corners. (If I had it to do
over again, the Malkin catalogue rule of thumb would have been "What Would
Allan Stevenson Do", since the best model would have been his volume of
the Hunt catalogue.)<br>
<br>
In the case cited, that would mean: pp. [i-iv] ix-xii, to be described as a
4-leaf gathering with a non-letterpress bifolium inserted between leaves 2 and
3 and counted by the printer as pp. [v-viii], 'cause that's what it is. That
reflects the fastidiousness of an obsessive bibliographer. Recalling that we
librarians have only just begun treating an engraved title page as a plate, I
suppose there might be some dissent among my colleagues.<br>
<br>
</span></font><tt><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>RICHARD
NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN HAY LIBRARY : <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">BROWN</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">UNIVERSITY</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font></tt><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><tt><font face="Courier New">PROVIDENCE</font></tt></st1:City><tt><font
face="Courier New">, <st1:State w:st="on">RI</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">02912</st1:PostalCode></font></tt></st1:place><tt><font
face="Courier New"> : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-2093 : RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU </font></tt><br>
<br>
</span></font>At 3/16/2009 07:04 PM, John Lancaster wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I have a 19<sup>th</sup>-century book in which there are two leaves of
engraved plates that are clearly not part of the letterpress sheets (paper is
completely different in color, thickness, and texture), but that are included
in the pagination. I can find no guidance in DCRM(B) for the correct way
to record this (any solution will require a note in addition to the pagination
and illustration statement), and welcome any thoughts on both the specifics and
the general issue. I’m sure there are other examples out there.<br>
<br>
The details are: The first gathering in the book is a normal gathering of
4 leaves letterpress, with the two (conjugate) leaves of plates (one an
engraved title page) nested within the letterpress, sewn as a single gathering
of 6 leaves. Most pages are unnumbered, but the paging of the letterpress
ends: ix, x, xi, xii. A new gathering begins with page 1 of the text, and
the rest of the book is unremarkable.<br>
<br>
Many thanks.<br>
<br>
--<br>
John Lancaster (<a href="mailto:jlancaster@amherst.edu">jlancaster@amherst.edu</a>)<br>
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">P.O. Box</st1:Street> 775</st1:address><br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Williamsburg</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">MA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">01096-0775</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><br>
413-268-7679<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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