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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>I’m gratified that John is leaning toward my position, and I
wish I could return the favor in full. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>One of the revisions in DCRM(B) was to take away the option of
putting notes in the statement of extent, for the sake of decluttering that
element. For example, you'll see that the option of adding notes about blank
pages or leaves (5B3.1) or advertisements (5B5) to the 300‡a is no longer given.
I appreciate the clarity of separating statement of extent from notes about the
nature or content of the extent. Even if that were not a principle of DCRM(B),
it isn't efficient, because with "(incl. plates)" you'd still have to
make a note explaining what you meant. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>Likewise [Dislikewise?], I have the same dislike of the
"[i.e.]" in the 300‡a, except if the last page is unnumbered. "100
[i.e. 104]" is a formulation that frustrates me I just find it harder to
visualize what's going on with the pagination. Nevertheless, that way of
representing internal, non-self-correcting mispaginations is an option in
DCRM(B), so it's a matter of institutional/personal choice. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>Bon voyage, John; have a great holiday without giving a single
thought to plates or statements of text or MARC tags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>__________________________</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#5C4676'> <br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. <br>
Head of Cataloging <br>
Folger Shakespeare Library <br>
201 East Capitol St., S.E. <br>
Washington, D.C. 20003 <br>
202.675-0369 <br>
djleslie@folger.edu | <a href="http://www.folger.edu">http://www.folger.edu</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Lancaster<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 18 March, 2009 19:21<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Pagination includes plates<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>Thanks to Richard and Deborah, who
have staked out the two basic positions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>What I’d <i>really</i> like to be
able to do is use the old “incl.” here: “xii, [13]-281, [1] p. incl.
plates” <or perhaps “(incl. [2] leaves of plates)”>, with a note making
clear where and what the plates are.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>But since I can’t do that, I lean
toward Deborah’s inclination; I’ve always felt that a pagination statement that
gives as concise a sense of the extent as possible (and I know it’s not always
possible) is desirable. (For instance, “100 [i.e. 104] p.” with a note
that numbers 79-82 are repeated in the paging, rather than ESTC’s “82, 79-100
p.”) Of course the details must be spelled out, but even in a
bibliographic description (rather than a catalogue record) I’d like an overview
as well (though since a statement of leaves typically follows the signature
collation, perhaps that’s enough of an overview).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>It would seem that it was clearly
the intent of whoever was responsible for designing the volume I’m working on
that the plates be counted in the pagination, and though the designer’s
(author’s, printer’s, binder’s) intent need not dictate an analytical
description, it carries some weight, and must be somewhere described. In
a catalogue record, I’d rather see it in the formulaic statement of pages, with
the analysis carried out in the note.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>In Richard’s example, it doesn’t
seem that the plates actually exactly correspond to the missing page numbers
(and if the pagination ends with an odd number on a verso, there’s something
else to be sorted out), but I’d still be more inclined to state “[8], 111 [i.e.
62], [2] p. and then lay out the details in a note – but perhaps the statement
of leaves provides as much of an overview as needed – so I won’t push that too
far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>Seriously, though, what would be
wrong with bringing back “incl.” – usage carefully defined – for such
situations (mine, not Richard’s – i.e., where the missing letterpress pages are
exactly supplied by the plates)? It would always require an explanatory
note, but it would allow a concise and clear statement of the situation in the
“statement of text” (or whatever “the first part of the statement of extent”
ends up being called).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>I’ll be away for the next two and a
half weeks, with no access to e-mail (or highly intermittent at best), so I
won’t be able to respond to further comments until early April.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>John Lancaster (<a
href="mailto:jlancaster@amherst.edu">jlancaster@amherst.edu</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>P.O. Box 775<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>Williamsburg, MA 01096-0775<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:blue'>413-268-7679</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Deborah
J. Leslie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 17, 2009 1:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Pagination includes plates</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>I was a little surprised not to see this addressed in DCRM(B),
because I remember discussing this exact problem in the context of fully
incorporating the 19c and later into the rules. The popularity of lithography,
especially chromolithography, in the 19c means there are lots of books out
there with plates incorporated into the pagination. Now that I think about it,
it may have been discussed at the 2003 DCRMB working conference, but then
forgotten and so never made it into the text. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>My inclination is opposite of Richard's for a library catalog
record. Not that I wouldn't agonize all over again should I have to catalog
such a volume, but it seems cleaner and more comprehensible to include the
plates in the statement of text*, and make a note specifying which page numbers
are in fact plates. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'>*I think I'll write a separate email on this, but by "statement
of text" I mean the first part of the statement of extent. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#5C4676'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard
Noble<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 17 March, 2009 01:50<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Pagination includes plates<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I agonized about this for a
while, then decided that the principle that trumps all is the strictest
possible separation in the treatment of letterpress and plates, the final test being
a proper correlation between the pagination statement and the collational
formula. The printer's method of numbering, and degree of success or failure in
following it, are secondary to the integrity of the structural description.<br>
<br>
It's messy--i.e. you'll need to do some explaining--no matter what you do, but
it always seemed more confusing, and to require more complicated explanation,
if I tried to treat the plates and the letterpress leaves as an integrated
sequence.<br>
<br>
A good example (or ill, depending on whether or not you think this is the
correct approach) is no. 101 in the Malkin catalogue, <i>Dancing by the Book</i>
(in Amherst Coll. special collections GV1643.M36 2003), where the formula
(minus diacritics and with superscripts lowered) is:<br>
<br>
8o: engr. ti. + a4 A-D8 [$4 (-a2,3,4, A4) signed]; 36 leaves, pp. [<i>8</i>]
1-12 17-28 31-34 39-40 49-52 55-56 59-60 63-64 74-77 80-81 84-85 94-103 108-111
<i>112-113</i> [=64] + plates, ff. [<i>6</i>], pp. [<i>58</i>]<br>
<br>
Of this it is noted, "The first part consists of the engraved title page
followed by a letterpress text into which 35 leaves of numbered engraved plates
have been inserted. The gaps in the letterpress page count allow for these
numbered plates, though the result is not perfect ...", followed by a
couple of yards of discursive goose chase through the vagaries of numbering and
occasionally misnumbering plates to fit into letterpress gaps. I think it's
much better to reserve such crankiness for the notes and keep the formula
clean: 72 pages ([64] + <i>8</i>) = 36 leaves of letterpress, with just this
gappy pagination. The letterpress is quite simple, and it helps immensely to
establish that up front as the background to the more complicated story of the
plates.<br>
<br>
It's quite possible that a case where the numberings line up properly would fit
well enough into a single pagination register, but I prefer to have a good
general rule that can handle the harder cases and still not make too much of a
mess of the simpler ones. The dance books demanded a lot of this sort of
extrapolation from WWBD ("What Would Bowers Do"), since Bowers never
dealt with books of this sort; but I think that Bowers had it right about
making plates and letterpress stand in opposite corners. (If I had it to do
over again, the Malkin catalogue rule of thumb would have been "What Would
Allan Stevenson Do", since the best model would have been his volume of
the Hunt catalogue.)<br>
<br>
In the case cited, that would mean: pp. [i-iv] ix-xii, to be described as a
4-leaf gathering with a non-letterpress bifolium inserted between leaves 2 and
3 and counted by the printer as pp. [v-viii], 'cause that's what it is. That
reflects the fastidiousness of an obsessive bibliographer. Recalling that we
librarians have only just begun treating an engraved title page as a plate, I
suppose there might be some dissent among my colleagues.<br>
<br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>RICHARD NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN
HAY LIBRARY : BROWN UNIVERSITY</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-2093 : RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU </tt><br>
<br>
</span>At 3/16/2009 07:04 PM, John Lancaster wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I have a 19<sup>th</sup>-century book in which there are two
leaves of engraved plates that are clearly not part of the letterpress sheets
(paper is completely different in color, thickness, and texture), but that are
included in the pagination. I can find no guidance in DCRM(B) for the
correct way to record this (any solution will require a note in addition to the
pagination and illustration statement), and welcome any thoughts on both the
specifics and the general issue. I’m sure there are other examples out
there.<br>
<br>
The details are: The first gathering in the book is a normal gathering of
4 leaves letterpress, with the two (conjugate) leaves of plates (one an
engraved title page) nested within the letterpress, sewn as a single gathering
of 6 leaves. Most pages are unnumbered, but the paging of the letterpress
ends: ix, x, xi, xii. A new gathering begins with page 1 of the text, and
the rest of the book is unremarkable.<br>
<br>
Many thanks.<br>
<br>
--<br>
John Lancaster (<a href="mailto:jlancaster@amherst.edu">jlancaster@amherst.edu</a>)<br>
P.O. Box 775<br>
Williamsburg, MA 01096-0775<br>
413-268-7679<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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