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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Framing the discussion in terms of when and where it makes sense
to continue abbreviations sounds like a good approach -- which parts of the catalog
description, which audiences, which materials.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>From my visual materials cataloging perspective related to DCRM(G),
spelling out abbreviations in catalog records is the way to go. Such
Latin-based abbreviations as s.l., s.n., and n.d. are cryptic for many people
trying to find pictures. Even the abbreviation "col." for color
has puzzled at least one art historian as well as the general public. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I bring this up now because the reasons for DCRM(G) to move away
from abbreviations might well support continuating some abbreviations when
describing rare books. Flip the key words in the following ideas, and they
match many of this thread's points on behalf of keeping abbreviations in such areas
as statement of extent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* Graphic materials cataloging is relatively RECENT -- there's no
long tradition of description to be consistent with and no large body of users versed
in standard collation vocabulary. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* Physical description of visual materials is BASIC & BRIEF relative
to the complexity of full collation statements; we're usually cataloging single
items or summarizing groups of related material. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* Picture cataloging is trying to communicate with a very DIVERSE
AUDIENCE (K-12, doctoral students, documentary film makers, family historians,
etc.) more than a specialized audience. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* DCRM(G) cataloging involves a wide range of materials
that are also described by other communities without using abbreviations (e.g.,
art museums, archives, photo stock agencies, collectors). We're
accounting for everything from 15th century portrait engravings to 21st century
comic book drawings; from American Civil War photographs to born-digital contemporary
news stories. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That was a long way of saying that DCRM(B) may well have rare
material reasons to differ from RDA and continue abbreviations in collation!
For DCRM(G), we have picture related reasons to step away from abbreviations. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Helena Zinkham<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Library of Congress<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Prints & Photographs Division<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>hzin@loc.gov<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2010 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] BYU's 1st RDA/DCRMB record<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Well,
yes, I've been addressing the whole range of conventions by which we're able to
compress our notation to something readable at a glance and easy to compare
with other descriptions. I simply cited "p." rhetorically, as
the ultimate point of absurdity to which these rules would reduce us. Nor do I
think that RDA does the "general" public any favors, in this
particular area: nobody talks this way.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>I am, of course, very much in agreement with
Karen Attar, that this discussion actually concerns many more people than those
in the tight little world within which RDA cooked this up. Especially as a
member of the BSA Publications Committee, I am appalled at so gross a departure
from conventions that we share with many constituencies. I think it may be time
to take this discussion to exlibris-l and perhaps sharp-l. I would be happy to
draft a succinct and, I promise, dispassionate posting to exlibris-l, specifically
concerning the statement of extent, with reference also to possible effects on
signature and collation notes.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><br clear=all>
</span><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>RICHARD NOBLE : RARE BOOKS
CATALOGER : JOHN HAY LIBRARY : BROWN UNIVERSITY<br>
PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-3384 : <a
href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank">RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU</a>
</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Deborah J. Leslie <<a
href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif";color:#1F497D'>I tend to agree
with Richard that the statement of extent horror in RDA goes well beyond not
liking it. It is nearly unintelligible. Perhaps the rare book reason might be
that we are committed to a more thorough statement of the physical artifact as
the artifact expresses itself. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif";color:#1F497D'>Much more than
spelling out "p.", it's the lack of square brackets that makes the
statement nearly impossible to parse. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 25 August, 2010 23:57</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] BYU's 1st RDA/DCRMB record<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;color:#1F497D'>Re: "2 unnumbered pages, iv pages,
1 unnumbered page, iv-xvii pages, 3 unnumbered pages, 348, that is, 332 pages,
6 unnumbered pages, 24 pages, 2 unnumbered pages."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>It goes a bit beyond
"I don't like it", though I'm glad for the moral support. It's really
that people who don't care in the first place will be confirmed in their
intention to pay no attention whatever to such a mess of verbiage; whereas the
people who do care about these sometimes vital details and want us to
communicate them clearly and succinctly will, in their justified frustration,
think of us as perfect fools. Who on earth that deals with books at all is
incapable of understanding "p."? For the love of Mike, these
conventions are a triumph of sorts: simple and elegant tools that took us a
long time to develop.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>I've engaged 25 groups
of people at Rare Book School, so far, in the art of describing complex
bibliographical phenomena as clearly and simply as possible, and in this
respect RDA is obtuse and altogether retrograde. It's not simplification--it's
patronizing. "The poor dears won't understand unless we spell it all
out". Or is this the best way to make us stop accounting for this
information? It <i>does</i> look bad; well then, don't do it at all.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>It may have been true
that "one of the principles underlying DCRM [is that] the rare rules
won’t depart from the general rules unless there is a rare materials
reason to do so". We need to revisit just what that principle really
means. Our proper work is dealing with the difficult cases, and we
can't do our work properly with such clumsy tools. In the absence of that work,
dealing with such materials as we do, FRBR will be a perfect sham.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Sorry for the rant. I
hadn't realized that despair comes in such small packages.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
style='font-family:"Courier New"'>RICHARD NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN
HAY LIBRARY : BROWN UNIVERSITY<br>
PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-3384 : <a
href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank">RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On
Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Robert Maxwell <<a
href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu" target="_blank">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Some thoughts on Richard’s
thoughts </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>2 unnumbered pages, iv pages, 1
unnumbered page, iv-xvii pages, 3 unnumbered pages, 348, that is, 332 pages, 6
unnumbered pages, 24 pages, 2 unnumbered pages.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I agree that this RDA result is awful and
I don’t like it. However, again, there isn’t any rare materials
reason why the general rule shouldn’t be applied to rare materials, and
remember that that is one of the principals underlying DCRM (the rare rules
won’t depart from the general rules unless there is a rare materials
reason to do so). “I don’t like it” doesn’t cut it as a
reason for differing. We will no doubt under our rare rules continue to insist
that every leaf be counted, which will differ from RDA for rare materials
reasons, but there is no rare reason that we can insist on different <i>conventions</i>
for counting (e.g. “unnumbered” instead of bracketing) the pages we
<i>do</i> choose to count.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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