<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Gothic";
panose-1:2 11 6 9 7 2 5 8 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Garamond;
panose-1:2 2 4 4 3 3 1 1 8 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Gothic";
panose-1:2 11 6 9 7 2 5 8 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=WordSection1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Inasmuch as future students of bibliography are learning from
standard sources (Gaskell, Bowers, etc.) they will be very familiar with the
convention of square brackets in statements of pagination, and it seems to me
that abandoning them would be a disservice. For example, I couldn't compare a
complicated RDA pagination statement against that found in a traditionally
prepared bibliography without re-writing the former in standard, bracketed
form. It is not just a matter of our records being stylistically at odds with
each other in our catalogs (as some have mentioned), it is a matter of our
records being at odds with the history of bibliographic practice and the thousands
of publications that have relied upon such practice--publications that scholars
and catalogers rely upon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Some general, hardly useful comments on RDA follow. My
department has been testing RDA during the Toolkit open-access period and I/we
echo many of the frustrations expressed in this thread. I admit, our testing is
not in-depth. Early on it became clear that in order to use RDA in any depth,
we would have to draft a very intense interpretation/implementation document,
and there is not sufficient time in the open-access period to do so. Anything
too complicated (for our first brush with the rules) is set aside, and some
things that appeared to be more or less straightforward (e.g., translations)
have been set aside due to lack of clear instruction on transcription and
construction of access points. Although unwieldy and wordy statements of extent
are not difficult to construct, we couldn't imagine bringing them in to our
catalog, so we have avoided titles with odd paging sequences. I hope we don't
sound completely unadventurous. We are just _really_ cautions. At present, we
do not feel we can adopt RDA responsibly without a whole lot of guidance (from
LC, PCC, etc.) and much wider discussion. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>All this said, we *do* favor the more accurate transcriptions
that result from using RDA. To me, that is its shining accomplishment; its
greater worth still TBD.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ryan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ryan Hildebrand<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Book Cataloging Dept. Head<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Harry Ransom Center<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>University of Texas at Austin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>P.O. Box 7219<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Austin, TX 78713-7219<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>512-232-1681<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/"><span style='color:blue'>www.hrc.utexas.edu</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble,
Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 27, 2010 9:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] BYU's 1st RDA/DCRMB record<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>On Fri, Aug
27, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Bryan, Anna <<a href="mailto:abry@loc.gov"
target="_blank">abry@loc.gov</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Surely an age
question plus a few examples, both easy and complex, should give us some idea
if what we are worried about is really a problem for the rest of the world.
Right now, we're all just talking to each other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>This
is not just an age question, but a much more fundamental question which frames
itself for me as a choice between maintaining a relatively consistent system in
long use, which will remain in use for the creation of records in other
environments than our own that are nevertheless of the highest relevance in our
work and that of our patrons, which can, if need be, be quickly learned by
those who need the information and ignored by those who don't; versus a
profession-centric, highly eccentric, and I dare say minimally researched
policy that, for example, restricts square brackets to a function that is
entirely peculiar to the makers of library catalog records and of no
interest whatever to the apparently otherwise uneducable audience for those
records, so ignorant that they cannot grasp what "p." means. (This
restriction on brackets has, I suspect, less to do with users and more to do
with the perceived or assumed or desired limitations of copy catalogers.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>What
disturbs me most about this aspect of RDA is <i>not</i> that it
compromises our ability to convey information economically, but that it seems
to have been composed in an echo chamber where rather vague notions about our
users' abilities prevail; and that it alienates us, in a small but critical
way, from the habits of mind of the "users" of dcrm records--who are
perhaps, statistically, too small a constituency to matter.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Einstein
is reported to have said (I haven't confirmed the reference, but I'd say it
myself): "I wouldn't give a nickel for the simplicity on this side of
complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of
complexity." Which is to say, "False simplicity is worthless."
You can simplify, but you can't oversimplify</span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>--if you're intersted in being intellectually
honest and, we might say, scholarly. Our work is done in research libraries,
and every effort we have made over the life of the Bib. Standards Committee has
been dedicated to making our work as scholarly as we can make it. I repeat my
not very paranoid suspicion that there is an attempt here to oversimplify our
work, to limit what we can do by making it impossible for us to communicate
complexity properly--to keep us on "this side of complexity", in
service to a false simplicity of thin description partly necessitated by
lengthy spelling out. We can anticipate resistance in defense of this
simplicity. Those of us privileged to hear Karen Calhoun at RBMS know what we
are facing, and that we will simply be told to "get over ourselves".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Time
and time again I have been able to resolve apparent complexity by making use of
tools that enable me to see it through to actual simplicity, or, just as
importantly, to achieve greater clarity in the face of real
complexity. This process is common to every sort of intellectual
endeavor; but we know that <i>our</i> endeavor is perceived in some
quarters as minor and of no wide interest. In the face of that, I can only
point out that my work depends on figuring out what we really have of
things that are supposed to matter enough that we want to tell other people,
and ourselves, that we have them. We can't manage and build our
collections--which is what people come to us for--without knowing what's in
them; and that work will often, whether we like it or not, require attention to
details.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>As
I suspected, RDA is taking us to a sort of crossroads. Do we wish to continue
anything that resembles DCRM(B), or should we simply give it up? If it's true
that, at this moment, we are just talking to each other, I also suspect it's
true that the Joint Committee were in the same pickle. Anyway, I'm going to
take this to a slightly wider forum that includes many members of our base
constituency and at least get some anecdotal responses. I fear that a
questionnaire centered on "age" will lead to a satisfaction of search
fallacy--youth is also inexperience. Shall we stand in the way of their getting
it, by limiting ourselves to their current understanding? Anyway, I've dealt
with a number of youths lately who are very much interested in getting
experience, and are not unduly flummoxed by square brackets and useful
abbreviations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>John Attig has suggested one way of proceeding.
I am also aware of a nascent idea that drcmb records might be accorded parallel
status in OCLC, which would recognize that we are working in a language, or let
us say a descriptive dialect, that may not be readable by all, but is needed by
us to speak to some, if they are to understand information that we can convey
and they can use.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>RICHARD
NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN HAY LIBRARY : BROWN UNIVERSITY<br>
PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-3384 : <a
href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank">RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU</a>
</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Bryan, Anna <<a
href="mailto:abry@loc.gov" target="_blank">abry@loc.gov</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Surely an age question plus a few examples, both easy and
complex, should give us some idea if what we are worried about is really a
problem for the rest of the world. Right now, we're all just talking to
each other.<br>
<br>
Would someone be willing to do this? See <a
href="http://www.surveymonkey.com/" target="_blank">http://www.surveymonkey.com/</a>.
I cannot, we are forbidden to download software on our work computers.
Have it open for a couple of weeks. Academe is coming back to their
offices. Again, I'm sure we can present a far more convincing case for an
exception for rare books if we can actually present some evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
Anna Bryan<br>
Sr. Cataloger<br>
Rare Materials Section<br>
Library of Congress<br>
I speak only for myself.<br>
-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>From: <a
href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
On Behalf Of Allison Rich<br>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 9:00 AM<br>
To: DCRM Revision Group List<br>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] BYU's 1st RDA/DCRMB record<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Anna:<br>
<br>
Setting up a survey might not be a bad idea.<br>
I think the researchers at my library would be happy to participate in such a
survey.<br>
<br>
We have researchers in all age ranges.<br>
<br>
~Allison Rich<br>
<br>
> Well, then rather than just speak vaguely to the Joint Committee, why not
have some data to back it up?<br>
><br>
> Rather than posting the alternatives to Exlibris, Sharp, and related
listserves, why not set up a survey? I have not done this, so I don't
know how difficult it would be. Specifically ask that catalogers not take
the survey. Ask for public service librarians and patrons/scholars to
fill it out. And be sure to have a question asking the age of the
respondent: 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.<br>
><br>
> It would be very interesting to see if there is a difference in perceived
comprehensiveness of a collation depending on age. We need to consider
the younger scholars, and I in my aerie up here on the roof of the Jefferson
building don't know many of them.<br>
><br>
> They are the important ones here. For the rest of us, change is the
only constant in life.<br>
><br>
********************************<br>
"Outside of a dog,<br>
a book is probably man's best friend,<br>
and inside of a dog,<br>
it's too dark to read.<br>
- Groucho Marx"<br>
<br>
Allison Rich<br>
Catalogue Librarian<br>
John Carter Brown Library<br>
Providence, Rhode Island<br>
<a href="mailto:Allison_Rich@brown.edu" target="_blank">Allison_Rich@brown.edu</a><br>
<br>
********************************<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>