<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>This conversation has cut to the core of--what seems to me to be--the central problem of modern librarianship. We our faced with increasingly tenuous budgets, a broader range of materials, changing patrons, an aging workforce, and administrators who may be as deeply concerned with the future of rare books as us, but who face millions of eBook records. We are a very loud, very talented, very important, minority.</div><div><br></div><div>Yet, high quality research still goes into descriptions of the physical artifacts held by our institutions and we all want to share that research. If a cataloger (curator, reference librarian, etc.) finds a hidden edition or identifies a previously unknown printer- I want that information in my library's catalog. My public service colleagues want that information for their reference requests. My administrators want it for risk management. My patrons want it to help speed their research. My friends at other libraries want it for their work, and so on. Naively, one could say that we could maintain an accurate inventory of items and create, say, blogs (or whatever next decade's technology is) sharing this information with the world, but the problem here becomes one of the logistics of cooperation. As anyone on this list might know, taking variously formatted and structured sources and trying to combine them into something sensible is a *hard* problem. Does cooperative cataloging ring a bell?</div><div><br></div><div>In my humble opinion, the question we should be worrying about is not "How do we preserve the richness of our base description?" but "How do we build cooperative structures to allow the experts among us to continue to enhance our documented history?" I'd rather see an inexpert librarian making a sketchy description, that doesn't pretend to be something it isn't, than that same librarian trying to catalog something with words they don't understand. Yet, for this to be a viable approach, we need some way for these sketchy (or even full PCC) records to be enhanced by the people who DO know what they are doing.</div><div><br></div><div>This problem seems to me to be one of education--to build a broad awareness of bibliography and ilk--and re-imagining workflows--so we can reward those who enhance bibliographic descriptions from which we all benefit. We need experts in bindings, collation, typography, pin-marks, paper, press-figures, etc. to continue to enhance our understanding of the past and we need to let them focus on the work they are good at. It's from a slightly different context, but I think of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." </div><div><br></div><div>How can we re-imagine ways that we can all benefit from the distributed network of experts that work in our rare book collections? How can we allow are descriptions to be progressively enhanced as more research enriches our understanding of the past?</div><div><br></div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Best,</div><div>-James P. Ascher</div><div><br></div><div>James P. Ascher</div><div>Assistant Professor and Rare Book Cataloger</div><div>Univ. of Colorado at Boulder Libraries, 184 UCB</div><div>1720 Pleasant Street, Boulder, CO 80309-0184</div><div>Voice: (303) 492-6104 Fax: (303) 492-0494</div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div>On Aug 27, 2010, at 11:18 AM, <a href="mailto:bethwhittaker@ku.edu">bethwhittaker@ku.edu</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">Deborah is too kind. I did not misunderstand. Rather, I took the opportunity to jump up on my tiny soapbox and rant a little. And I'm going to do it again!<br><br>Of course we have researchers who need those kinds of details. They also need better wireless in our reading rooms, more support for teaching with original resources, and, if you're somewhere other than the Folger, they also need a way to find examples of lesbian vampire fiction in languages other than English. Or photographs of African American military from the Korean War wearing civilian clothes.<br>I don't have a dog in this fight, thank goodness. I remain conflicted about RDA while managing at the same time to keep myself ignorant of its development. I just worry that we are losing sight of the forest for the trees.<br><br>Rant over! I'll now leave the discussion to people who still catalog rare materials for a living.<p><br>Beth M. Whittaker<br>Head, Spencer Research Library<br>University of Kansas<br>785-864-4275<br><br>Sent from my mobile, so please forgive my typing.</p><hr><div><b>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Deborah J. Leslie" <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@FOLGER.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">DJLeslie@FOLGER.edu</a>></div><div><b>Sender:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a></div><div><b>Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:52:48 -0400</div><div><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>DCRM Revision Group List<<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>></div><div><b>ReplyTo:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>DCRM Revision Group List <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>></div><div><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [DCRM-L] BYU's 1st RDA/DCRMB record</div><div><br></div><div class="Section1" style="page: Section1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype', serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102); ">If Beth misunderstood my point, I expect others do, too. I included the query to show that there are some readers who<i>do</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>care about such details, not that the catalog record should have been able to answer her question before it was asked. The larger implicit point is that although perhaps the majority of end-users don't care about how many pages there are, numbered or unnumbered, but that there are some who do, as well as those of us who are responsible for buying, inventorying, and making collections available. If in your library, you're buying only for content and it doesn't matter which edition, issue, or printing you have, maybe having an accurate page-count doesn't matter, either.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype', serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype', serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102); ">But then I have to ask the question: if that's the situation, why catalog with DCRM(B)?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype', serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Whittaker, Beth M<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, 27 August, 2010 12:30<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>DCRM Revision Group List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [DCRM-L] BYU's 1st RDA/DCRMB record<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">At the risk of sounding like a penny-pinching administrator, I would argue that the situation Deborah outlines below is one that NO amount of standardized MARC cataloging can easily explain. There will ALWAYS be oddities in printed books that require direct questions beyond what it is the catalog record, no matter how complex.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Might catalogers’ time be better spent creating records which do not *<b>lie</b>* about what is in the book, but do not attempt to explain every possible detail? A follow up question from a researcher, perhaps requesting additional clarification or to have something scanned, might take less time, even if it happens every few years, than hours of agonizing over how to represent the document, how to abbreviate it, how to pay for the education to know how to abbreviate it, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Of course, in an ideal world, our records could link to some of this additional information much more easily. In my lifetime, I hope!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Beth<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>