<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns:p="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:powerpoint" xmlns:a="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:access" xmlns:dt="uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" xmlns:s="uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882" xmlns:rs="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset" xmlns:z="#RowsetSchema" xmlns:b="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:publisher" xmlns:ss="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet" xmlns:c="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:component:spreadsheet" xmlns:odc="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:odc" xmlns:oa="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:activation" xmlns:html="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:q="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" xmlns:rtc="http://microsoft.com/officenet/conferencing" xmlns:D="DAV:" xmlns:Repl="http://schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" xmlns:mt="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/meetings/" xmlns:x2="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" xmlns:ppda="http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" xmlns:ois="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" xmlns:dir="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" xmlns:ds="http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" xmlns:dsp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" xmlns:udc="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:sub="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/" xmlns:ec="http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" xmlns:sp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" xmlns:sps="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:udcs="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/soap" xmlns:udcxf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" xmlns:udcp2p="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" xmlns:wf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" xmlns:dsss="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" xmlns:dssi="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig" xmlns:mdssi="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/digital-signature" xmlns:mver="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns:mrels="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationships" xmlns:spwp="http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" xmlns:ex12t="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types" xmlns:ex12m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/messages" xmlns:pptsl="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/" xmlns:spsl="http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/PublishedLinksService" xmlns:Z="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" xmlns:st="" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><base href="x-msg://908/"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Palatino Linotype";
panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 5 5 3 3 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.apple-converted-space
{mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Some other thoughts to supplement the caveats of Deborah and the practical considerations of John.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Apparently Ligatus will provide us means to identify scientifically the beast whose hide is on our books. Is that what we want? Or do we want to write the term, however unscientific, that was used by the book trade for the leather at the time it was applied? I suggest that we want the latter if we are documenting the production and distribution of books rather than the history of skin. However, a conservator would want to know the beast. For whom are we writing our descriptions?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Donald Farren<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>4009 Bradley Lane<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Chevy Chase, MD 20815-5238<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>dfarren@concentric.net<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>voice 301.951.9479<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>fax 301.951.3898<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>mobile 301.768.8972</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Lancaster<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 22, 2011 12:54 PM<br><b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br><b>Cc:</b> Nicholas Pickwoad<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] FW: [EXLIBRIS-L] Seeking leather bookbinding ID references<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Deborah - <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>What descriptor(s) do you recommend in place of “morocco”? Especially given the difficulty determining whether a given skin might be goat or sheep, or knowing what the binding trade at the time might have called it (and given that the term has long been in widespread use among book people of all sorts)?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I’m not advocating the use of the term, but if it is to be avoided or replaced, there needs to be a shared understanding of what any terms used in place of “morocco” actually refer to - which is where the Ligatus glossary, and particularly the photographs illustrating the terms, will be indispensable. Roberts and Etherington write in detail about many possibilities, but without standards to test examples against, it’s very difficult to be sure whether one is using any given term accurately.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I too eagerly look forward to the Ligatus glossary. I hope it will offer a hierarchy of terms, such that a cataloguer can use some general term in the absence of the ability (for whatever reason) to determine what animal the skin came from, or what tanning or graining method was used, or where the skin originated. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John Lancaster<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:42 PM, Deborah J. Leslie wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif";color:#215868'>Most of you will perhaps have seen this, but for those who haven't: it's one of the reasons I advise catalogers against using the binding descriptor "morocco." It has meant a number of things over time. In addition, there is a species continuum between sheep and goats. I am all anticipation of the binding glossary promised by NP.</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#31849B'>__________</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#31849B'>Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Head of Cataloging, Folger Shakespeare Library<br><a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu"><span style='color:#31849B;text-decoration:none'>djleslie@folger.edu</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>| 202.675-0369 |<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="www.folger.edu"><span style='color:#31849B;text-decoration:none'>www.folger.edu</span></a></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif";color:#215868'> </span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Rare book and manuscripts [mailto:EXLIBRIS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU] On Behalf Of Nicholas Pickwoad<br>Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 04:20<br>To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:EXLIBRIS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU">EXLIBRIS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU</a><br>Subject: Re: [EXLIBRIS-L] Seeking leather bookbinding ID references<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>I would like to inject a small note of warning into the discussion <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>about using modern samples of leather for the identification of <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>historic leathers used on books. The animals whose skins were used <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>have changed over the centuries, and the hairsheep that was one of the <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>most common sources of leathers for the booktrade will not feature <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>among modern samples. This is important for the identification of <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>skins on books, as it is these skins that are the hardest to identify <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>(calf and pig are, by comparison, quite straightforward) as the skins <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>of animals bearing coarse wool hairs as well a fine ones produce skins <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>that are virtually identical to goatskin. The modern sheep, bred <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>increasingly to eliminate the coarse wool hairs, has a skin that is <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>entirely different in appearance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>The problem is compounded, not simplified, by the term 'morocco'. In <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>France the term 'maroquin' was used to describe the highest quality <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>skins of the type today found in northern Nigeria. Following the <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>traditional habit of the European leather trades, the skin was named <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>after the country from which it was shipped, in this case Morocco, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>where the native-dyed skins or possibly undyed crusts, were given <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>final treatments, including dyeing, before export. It was for this <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>reason that the same skins were known as 'Turkey leather' in Britain, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>as British merchants were only allowed to trade with the Ottoman <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>empire through the port of Smyrna (modern Izmir). The British leather <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>trade used the word 'morocco' for the skins traditionally thought to <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>have been procured in the 1720s for Edward Harley in Fez in an attempt <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>to make good the short supply of Turkey leather in the early <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>eighteenth century. The skins were bright and colourful and were <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>imported directly from Morocco (hence the name), but were taken from <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>hairsheep, not goats, and they have proved much less durable. The <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>English booktrade maintained the distinction between 'turkey' and <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>'morocco' leathers until at least the 1780s.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Any sample book must, if it is to be helpful, use macro-photographs of <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>genuine period skins identified by experts in such matters, but when <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Ronald Read (author of Ancient Skins, Parchments and Leathers, already <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>cited in this correspondence and still far and away the best book on <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>the subject currently available) admits that telling goat from <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>hairsheep skins can be impossible by visual examination only, we need <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>to be very careful in jumping to conclusions. Our ongoing work in the <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Ligatus Research Centre on a glossary of bookbinding terms is to <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>include a set of such photographs, but that is, I am afraid, a year or <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>two away as yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Nicholas Pickwoad<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Professor Nicholas Pickwoad, River Farm, Great Witchingham,Norwich, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>NR9 5NA.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>E-mail:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:npickwoad@paston.co.uk">npickwoad@paston.co.uk</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>