<font size="2"><font face="georgia,serif">Ignorance on parade: Where is the instruction "to be guided by the form in the 781"?</font></font><div><font size="2"><font face="georgia,serif"><br></font></font></div><div>
<font size="2"><font face="georgia,serif">The problem is, of course, that the 781 form will be constrained by the limitation to two z subfields in indirect subdivision, which is certainly not in the exuberantly expansive spirit of the 752 field as exemplified in the MARC21 examples.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="georgia,serif"><br></font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="georgia,serif">BTW: I've noticed that 781s treat England as first-order, while the BL (being British, and having no patience for English nationalism?) enters e.g. "Great Britain $b England $d London". I suppose the NLS approaches Scotland rather differently--I'll have a look.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="georgia,serif"><br clear="all"></font></font><font face="'courier new', monospace">RICHARD NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN HAY LIBRARY : BROWN UNIVERSITY<br>PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-3384 : <a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank">RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU</a> </font><br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366">Thanks, all. It does make the most sense, but it does make instructing new catalogers more difficult, because now there's an Australian exception to "be guided by the form in the
781."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Margaret F Nichols<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 06 December 2011 17:32</span></p><div class="im"><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
</div><div><div class="h5"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
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</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I vote for that form, too, for the reasons Bob mentions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Margaret<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Margaret F. Nichols<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Rare Materials Cataloging Coordinator<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Cataloging & Metadata Services in RMC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">2B Kroch Library<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Cornell University<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Ithaca, NY 14853-5302<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Tel. <a href="tel:%28607%29%20255-3530" value="+16072553530" target="_blank">(607) 255-3530</a> * Fax <a href="tel:%28607%29%20255-9524" value="+16072559524" target="_blank">(607) 255-9524</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">E-mail <a href="mailto:mnr1@cornell.edu" target="_blank">mnr1@cornell.edu</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Randal Brandt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2011 4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I second Bob's vote. I took a look at our catalog and, alas, we've been inconsistent. But, recent records have the subfield a-b-d construction.<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
On 12/6/2011 11:48 AM, Robert Maxwell wrote: <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I vote for</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 Australia ‡b Victoria ‡d Melbourne.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">It’s consistent with the way you (and we) treat other countries such as the U.S. and not dependent on the vagaries of LC subject subdivision practice.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Robert L. Maxwell</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Genre/Form Authorities Librarian</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">6728 Harold B. Lee Library</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Brigham Young University</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Provo, UT 84602</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:%28801%29422-5568" value="+18014225568" target="_blank">(801)422-5568</a>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza
R. Snow, 1842.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Deborah J. Leslie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2011 12:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'DCRM Revision Group List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">We are adding 752's to all our editions of Shakespeare, and I'm a little perplexed on how to render Australian cities in hierarchical form. Australia is treated strangely
in AACR2, because the cities are qualified by the state instead of the country, but in subdivisions, Australia comes first: from the NAR for Melbourne:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">151 Melbourne (Vic.)
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">781 0</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Australia
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Melbourne (Vic.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Contrast this to the NAR for San Francisco, which goes straight into first order political division:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">151 San Francisco (Calif.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">781 0</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z California
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z San Francisco</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Or for Heidelberg, with no intervening state or province:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">151 Hamburg (Germany)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">781 0</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Germany
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Hamburg</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">As do many institutions, we use the country name even for countries that are subdivided and qualified by their first order political division:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 United States ‡b California ‡d San Francisco.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Given all this, what makes most sense?:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 Australia
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span>b<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> Melbourne (Vic.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">or
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 Australia ‡b Victoria ‡d Melbourne.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#0070c0"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#0070c0">Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Head of Cataloging, Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol St., S.E. | Washington, D.C. 20003<br>
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0070c0">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a></span>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#0070c0">| <a href="tel:202.675-0369" value="+12026750369" target="_blank">202.675-0369</a> | <a href="http://www.folger.edu/" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#0070c0">http://www.folger.edu</span></a> </span> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>__________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Randal Brandt<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Principal Cataloger<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>The Bancroft Library<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-2275" value="+15106432275" target="_blank">(510) 643-2275</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="http://bancroft.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">http://bancroft.berkeley.edu</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>"It's hard enough to remember my opinions without <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>remembering my reasons for them"--The Streets.<u></u><u></u></pre>
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