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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">Well, the ignorance on parade is mine, it seems. It's how I train catalogers to figure out how to formulate the 752. Notice, however, the careful wording: being
guided by the form in the 781 isn't the same as blindly following the form in the 781; I simply specify that for the U.S., U.K., and Canada (and now Australia), the country name goes in 752‡a.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">In the early days of the 752, many of us used to enter the British constituent country first. There was a MASC discussion about the practice some years ago--initiated
by Henry Raine?--and a common consensus emerged that it's much better to start the 752 with the country. Reference to the 781 in practice is both a convenient way to provide authority for formulating the 752, as well as help in complicated situations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0">Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Head of Cataloging, Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol St., S.E. | Washington, D.C. 20003<br>
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu"><span style="color:#0070C0">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0">| 202.675-0369 |
<a href="http://www.folger.edu/"><span style="color:#0070C0">http://www.folger.edu</span></a>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 07 December 2011 10:14<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Ignorance on parade: Where is the instruction "to be guided by the form in the 781"?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">The problem is, of course, that the 781 form will be constrained by the limitation to two z subfields in indirect subdivision, which is certainly not in the exuberantly expansive
spirit of the 752 field as exemplified in the MARC21 examples.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">BTW: I've noticed that 781s treat England as first-order, while the BL (being British, and having no patience for English nationalism?) enters e.g. "Great Britain $b England $d
London". I suppose the NLS approaches Scotland rather differently--I'll have a look.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br clear="all">
</span><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE : RARE BOOKS CATALOGER : JOHN HAY LIBRARY : BROWN UNIVERSITY<br>
PROVIDENCE, RI 02912 : 401-863-1187/FAX 863-3384 : <a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank">
RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU</a> </span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366">Thanks, all. It does make the most sense, but it does make instructing new catalogers more difficult, because now there's
an Australian exception to "be guided by the form in the 781."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Margaret F Nichols<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 06 December 2011 17:32</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I vote for that form, too, for the reasons Bob mentions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Margaret</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Margaret F. Nichols</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Rare Materials Cataloging Coordinator</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cataloging & Metadata Services in RMC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">2B Kroch Library</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cornell University</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ithaca, NY 14853-5302</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tel.
<a href="tel:%28607%29%20255-3530" target="_blank">(607) 255-3530</a> * Fax <a href="tel:%28607%29%20255-9524" target="_blank">
(607) 255-9524</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">E-mail
<a href="mailto:mnr1@cornell.edu" target="_blank">mnr1@cornell.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Randal Brandt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2011 4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I second Bob's vote. I took a look at our catalog and, alas, we've been inconsistent. But, recent records have the subfield a-b-d construction.<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
On 12/6/2011 11:48 AM, Robert Maxwell wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I vote for</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 Australia ‡b Victoria ‡d Melbourne.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">It’s consistent with the way you (and we) treat other countries such as the U.S. and not dependent on the vagaries of LC subject subdivision practice.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Genre/Form Authorities Librarian</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">6728 Harold B. Lee Library</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brigham Young University</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Provo, UT 84602</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:%28801%29422-5568" target="_blank">(801)422-5568</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Deborah J. Leslie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2011 12:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'DCRM Revision Group List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] Australian cities in field 752</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">We are adding 752's to all our editions of Shakespeare, and I'm a little perplexed on how to render Australian cities in hierarchical form. Australia is treated strangely in AACR2, because the cities are qualified
by the state instead of the country, but in subdivisions, Australia comes first: from the NAR for Melbourne:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">151 Melbourne (Vic.) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">781 0</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Australia
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Melbourne (Vic.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Contrast this to the NAR for San Francisco, which goes straight into first order political division:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">151 San Francisco (Calif.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">781 0</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z California
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z San Francisco</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Or for Heidelberg, with no intervening state or province:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">151 Hamburg (Germany)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">781 0</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Germany
</span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">z Hamburg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">As do many institutions, we use the country name even for countries that are subdivided and qualified by their first order political division:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 United States ‡b California ‡d San Francisco.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Given all this, what makes most sense?:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 Australia </span><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif"">ǂ</span>b<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> Melbourne (Vic.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">or </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">752 Australia ‡b Victoria ‡d Melbourne.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#0070C0"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#0070C0">Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Head of Cataloging, Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol St., S.E. | Washington, D.C. 20003<br>
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0070C0">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a></span>
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#0070C0">| <a href="tel:202.675-0369" target="_blank">
202.675-0369</a> | <a href="http://www.folger.edu/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0070C0">http://www.folger.edu</span></a>
</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>__________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Randal Brandt<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal Cataloger<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The Bancroft Library<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-2275" target="_blank">(510) 643-2275</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://bancroft.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">http://bancroft.berkeley.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>"It's hard enough to remember my opinions without <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>remembering my reasons for them"--The Streets.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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