<div dir="ltr">Kathie, Ted, Iris, and all,<div><br></div><div>I input the original record and have had second thoughts about the formulation of the authorized access point. My apologies for the error and confusion. I do have a question about the discussion so far and how to proceed in the future.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Based on the information available, I would be inclined to go with #2 of LC PCC PS 9.19.1.1 but give the authorized access point as 100 0 Veuve de Marc Bordelet, -1773. Here's why, please correct me or offer comments.</div>
<div><br></div><div>We have her maiden name, we have her latest husband's full name, and we have reference sources that give her name as veuve de Marc Bordelet. But we don't have documentation that she adopted her husband's last name and went by Marie-Jeanne Bordelet so I'm a little hesitant to combine her first name and her husband's last name and make the authorized access point 100 1 Bordelet, Marie-Jeanne, -1773. It's a pretty safe assumption that she adopted her husband's last name, especially when the source says "la veuve Bordelet." But what if the source said "la veuve de Marc Bordelet"? In that case do we still assume she adopted her latest husband's last name and enter her under Bordelet, Marie-Jeanne, -1773? </div>
<div><br></div><div>LC PCC PS 9.19.1.1. appears to emphasize personal name even more than does LCRI 22.2. So it's possible we do want to prioritize the personal name to the degree that, in some cases, we assume the widow adopted her latest husband's last name. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Any feedback would be appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Kate</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:28 AM, O'Brien, Iris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Iris.O'Brien@bl.uk" target="_blank">Iris.O'Brien@bl.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Dear Kat</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">h</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">ie and Ted</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">,</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">I know it has been</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">some time</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"> since</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">this topic was discussed</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">but</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">I thought</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">you</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">might be</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">interested in hearing</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">Richard Moore</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">’</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">s</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">(</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Authority Control Team Manager at the British Library</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">)</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">take on this as the record was</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"> edited by the British Library</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">. As he was away,</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">he only just got back to me.</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">You can</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"> find his comments</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">below.</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"></font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Kind regards,</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Iris</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a name="141020e5050c6558_"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">--------------------------------</font></span></a></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Iris O'Brien</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Early Printed Collections Cataloguing and Processing Manager</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">The British Library</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">St Pancras</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">96 Euston Road</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">London</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">NW1 2DB</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">Tel.: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%2920%C2%A07412%207731" value="+442074127731" target="_blank">+44 (0)20 7412 7731</a> </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">E-mail: <a href="mailto:iris.o%27brien@bl.uk" target="_blank">iris.o'brien@bl.uk</a></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">_____________________________________________<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">From:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> Moore, Richard<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">Sent:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> 09 September 2013 08:42<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">To:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> O'Brien, Iris<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">Subject:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> RE: [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Iris</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Thanks for this. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">The order of subfields in “400 |a Bordelet, Marc, |d 1697-1754, |c widow of” does seem to have been transposed when we amended the record on 9</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><sup><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">th</font></sup></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana"> August this year. Aleph doesn’t re-order subfields automatically. We will fix this.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">The 670 beginning “Par acte du 19 mai 1760” should be structured with the source in |a and the information found in |b; it’s also usual to render the information found into English. We will fix this too.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Of course you are correct to say that if an AACR2 heading has a valid RDA construction, it would not be changed when re-coded to RDA, just because new information is available. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Our person is identified in the resource cited when the record was created as “la veuve Bordelet”, so at first sight she might fall under 3. in the LC-PCC-PS:</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">If the widow of a printer is identified only by a surname and term such as</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">“</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">widow,</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">”</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS"></font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">which would lead us to 9.2.2.9.3, and the form “Bordelet, |c Veuve”.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">However, I think that “identified” can only mean what</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Kathie Coblentz wants it to mean. In that case, la veuve Bordelet is not</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">identified only by a surname and term such as</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">“</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">widow,</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">”</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS"></font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">but rather</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">is identified only as the widow of the print</font><font color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS">er</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana"></font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">, so she falls under 2., and “Veuve Bordelet” is correct, following the LC-PCC-PS and</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">9.2.2.24.</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">The British Library creates and uses LC/NAF authorities, and is as bound by the LC-PCC-PS as any other NACO participant. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Please feel free to copy or forward these comments if you think them useful.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Regards</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Richard</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">_________________________</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Richard Moore </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Authority Control Team Manager </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">The British Library</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana"> </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Tel.: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%291937%20546806" value="+441937546806" target="_blank">+44 (0)1937 546806</a> </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">E-mail:</font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:richard.moore@bl.uk" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><u></u></span><u><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">richard.moore@bl.uk</font></span></u><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Verdana"> </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#0000FF" face="Arial"> </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">_____________________________________________<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">From:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> O'Brien, Iris<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">Sent:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> 29 August 2013 09:54<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">To:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> Moore, Richard<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">Subject:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> FW: [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">Dear Richard,</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">You might be interested in this discussion that is currently taking place on the DCRM-L e-mail list about an authority record for a printer’s widow.</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">I</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"> thought</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font face="Arial">that once you ha</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">d</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial"> an established heading and it</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"> wa</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">s RDA compatible you</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font color="#000000" face="Arial">wouldn</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">’</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">t</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial"> change this completely just because you ha</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font color="#000000" face="Arial">d</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial"> some new information.</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">Although the 400 “widow of “heading does seem odd. Could it be that the system automatically changed the sequence of sub-fields to put them in alphabetical order?</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">Kind regards,</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Arial">Iris</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Courier New">-----Original Message-----<br>
From:</font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u></u></span><u><span lang="en-us"><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></span></u><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Courier New"> [</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u></u></span><u><span lang="en-us"><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></span></u><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Courier New">] On Behalf Of Ted P Gemberling<br>
Sent: 28 August 2013 18:55<br>
To: DCRM Users' Group<br>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Kathie, </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">I suppose the problem is that the British Library isn't really bound by the LC-PCC PS. I looked at RDA itself, and 9.2.2.24 (Phrase Containing the Name of Another Person) appears to mandate setting it up as no2009079894 does it, Veuve Bordelet. There is no mention of what you would do if you have more information from reference sources. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">I suppose one argument someone could make against the priority of the person's real name is that people looking for old books would be more likely to know the person by the phrases on the title pages than by her real name, unless they happened to have read the reference sources. That's how the rule seems to treat the matter. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">If, in addition to being her husband's successor as a printer or bookseller, she also published her own works under her own name, it seems that would be an argument for a "separate bibliographic identity" that called for a separate authority record. Veuve Bordelet and Marie-Jeanne Bordelet might be separate identities. I don't know if I like that, but it's just something worth considering. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">At the very least, though, the 400 Bordelet, Marc,</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">ǂ</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">c widow of</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">ǂ</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">d 1697?-1754, can't be right. As Marc's dates, they belong after his name rather than after "widow of." </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Ted Gemberling</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">----Original Message-----</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">From:</font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New"> [</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">] On Behalf Of Ted P Gemberling</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 5:58 PM</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">To: DCRM Users' Group</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Kathie, </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">I think you're right. The LC-PCC PS seems clearly to mandate what you are saying. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">As for the 400 with the husband's dates, wouldn't the correct order of subfields be this if we were to retain it?</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Bordelet, Marc,</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">ǂ</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">d 1697?-1754,</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"> <font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">ǂ</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">c widow of</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">I don't know if that's legal or not, but certainly it can't be in the form it currently is on the record. I notice the cataloger left a comma after the dates, as if he/she were expecting a subfield c to follow. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Maybe we should report these problems to the PCC list at some point. </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Ted Gemberling</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">-----Original Message-----</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">From:</font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New"> [</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">] On Behalf Of Kathie Coblentz</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:17 PM</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">To:</font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Thanks to Ted for the helpful reply, and thanks to Robert Maxwell for explaining that the "printers' widows" clause came originally from the LCRI (in 2002), and was written by the BSC. (It has been re-written for the LC-PCC PS, with a considerable loss of clarity.)</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">The concrete example that led to my overanalysis of the PS is this:</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">lccn # no2009079894, Veuve Bordelet, -1773.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">This NAR was originally created under AACR 2 in this form (in 2009), and has recently been updated by the British Library.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">When the record was originally created, no information was provided about Mme. Bordelet's personal name, though it was readily available in the only source cited, the CERL online thesaurus, which was last changed in 2004 and gives her maiden name (Marie-Jeanne Largentier) as well as full details of her two marriages to printers.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">The record was updated earlier this year in the Great Wave of Change to convert the death date from d. 1773 to "-1773," but was otherwise untouched from its creation until August 9, 2013. On that date the BL added a 670 citing the wonderful title of a 1760 legal document that gives us her maiden name and the full names of her two husbands, as well as the names of her daughter by her first marriage and her son-in-law (she was apparently in bankruptcy and the document relates to the identification of her debts).</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Armed with that information, the BL cataloger added 400s from her maiden name and her two married names. One existing 400 was changed (surely erroneously): "Bordelet, Marc,1697?-1754, widow of" has become "Bordelet, Marc, widow of 1697?-1754" (the husband's dates have no place here).</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">But it seems that both under AACR 2/LCRI and RDA/LC-PCC PSS, the preferred form of her name should be her personal name, and specifically the latest form of her personal name, the name she bore in her second marriage: Bordelet, Marie-Jeanne. (See RDA 9.2.2.7 for the "change of name" guidelines.)</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Am I thinking clearly here? Thanks for your input.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">--------------------------------------------------------</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">Kathie Coblentz, Rare Materials Cataloger Collections Strategy/Special Formats Processing The New York Public Library, Stephen A. Schwarzman Building 5th Avenue and 42nd Street, Room 313 New York, NY 10018</font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:kathiecoblentz@nypl.org" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">kathiecoblentz@nypl.org</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New"> My opinions, not NYPL's</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">---------- Forwarded message ----------</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> From: Ted P Gemberling <</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a href="mailto:tgemberl@uab.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">tgemberl@uab.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> To: DCRM Users' Group <</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> Cc:</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:43:22 +0000</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> Kathie,</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> I think you might be overanalyzing this. I think the LC-PCC PS is basically giving us permission to follow three different practices depending on how much information we have.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> 1.) If we know the real name of the widow, we enter by that name.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> 2.) If we know her husband’s full name but not hers, we set it up as a “phrase in direct order” (in other words, in the order we find it on the title page), with a reference with his name in inverted order, followed by “widow of.”</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> 3.) If we don’t know his full name, we set it up with the phrase in inverted order as, say, “Cuthbert, Widow,” with a reference in direct order as “Widow Cuthbert”</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> I’ll admit I was a little surprised by #3, because I expected the use of direct order there, as in #2, also. Apparently they’re following RDA 9.2.2.9.3, “Persons Known by a Surname Only,”</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> using inverted order. When you have that little information about someone, I suppose the surname is the most distinctive thing about them. But since in both cases you’re including a 400 for the other form in the authority record, you are not really losing any information by choosing direct order or inverted order as the established form. A user will be able to retrieve the name by either “widow” or Cuthbert. That shows the importance of authority records.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> At any rate, I think it’s clear that the three scenarios are distinguished by how much information we have about the person. In #1, we have the widow’s full name; in #3, we only have her husband’s surname.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> I think you can read between the lines and assume that if we knew from reference sources what her husband’s given name was, we would use #2 even if that name wasn’t given on the title page.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> The more information we have, from any source, the more likely we are to use #1.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> Ted Gemberling</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><font face="Courier New">> UAB Lister Hill Library</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">From:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"></font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><u></u></span><u><span lang="en-us"><font color="#0000FF" face="Tahoma">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></span></u><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> [</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><u></u></span><u><span lang="en-us"><font color="#0000FF" face="Tahoma">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</font></span></u><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">]</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Tahoma">On Behalf Of</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Tahoma">Kathie Coblentz<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">Sent:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> 27 August 2013 16:06<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">To:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"></font></span><span lang="en-gb"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"><u></u></span><u><span lang="en-us"><font color="#0000FF" face="Tahoma">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</font></span></u><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><br>
</span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><span lang="en-gb"><b></b></span><b><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma">Subject:</font></span></b><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> [DCRM-L] Printers' widows</font></span><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb">I am having trouble with the LC-PCC PS for RDA 9.19.1.1, the section on "Printer's widows." (First question: shouldn't this be "Printers' widows"? Unless one printer has more than one widow who used his name?)<br>
<br>
Basically, we find two forms in imprints. A widow might be called "The widow of [deceased printer's full name]," or she might be called "The widow so-and-so" [deceased printer's surname]. In either case, we may or may not know the widow's full name (that is, her forename(s) and possibly her maiden name), and in the second case, we may or may not know the deceased printer's full name.<br>
<br>
The PS apparently attempts to cover every situation. But given the way it is written, I am hard put to understand what I should do in some cases.<br>
<br>
As the PS is written, there are three possibilities:<br>
<br>
"1. If a woman is referred to as a 'printer's widow' in the resource being cataloged and/or in reference sources and her personal name is known ..."<br>
<br>
"2. If the widow of a printer is identified only as the widow of the printer ..."<br>
<br>
"3. If the widow of a printer is identified only by a surname and term such as 'widow,' ..."<br>
<br>
I'm confused by the use of "is referred to as" in Case 1, where Cases 2 and 3 have "is identified only as." The quotation marks around "printer's widow" in Case 1 also baffle me, because the example is in Latin, and the lady isn't even called the Latin equivalent of "printer's widow"; she is called the Latin equivalent of "the widow of Christoffel Ruremund."<br>
<br>
I believe the author of the PS must have meant "is identified only" in Case 2 to be shorthand for "is referred to in the resource being cataloged and cannot not be further identified through reference sources," because otherwise, I don't see the difference between Case 1 and Case 2. In the examples for both, we have a term for "widow" and the full name of a printer. In Case 1, we know the lady's forename; in Case 2, we evidently do not.<br>
<br>
But is this also true of Case 3, for which the example is "Printed by the Widow Cuthbert"? Would we also apply this if we knew the late husband's full name from reference sources, or perhaps if the lady is known to use it on other resources? ("Widow Cuthbert" and "widow of John Cuthbert"?) And if we know through reference sources that the widow Cuthbert's given name is Mary, is it still Case 3 that applies, or do we go back to Case 1?<br>
<br>
And what do we do if one and the same lady is the widow of two printers, and has been active in the trade successively under both their names? (This is not a hypothetical question.)<br>
<br>
Thanks for your insights.</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb">(I submitted this question originally last Friday, but it was not posted; I think I've corrected the problem with my e-mail that may have been responsible.)<br>
--------------------------------------------------------<br>
Kathie Coblentz, Rare Materials Cataloger<br>
Collections Strategy/Special Formats Processing<br>
The New York Public Library, Stephen A. Schwarzman Building<br>
5th Avenue and 42nd Street, Room 313<br>
New York, NY 10018<br>
</span><a href="mailto:kathiecoblentz@nypl.org" target="_blank"><span lang="en-gb"><u><font color="#0000FF">kathiecoblentz@nypl.org</font></u></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></a><span lang="en-gb"><br>
<br>
My opinions, not NYPL's</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-gb"></span><span lang="en-gb"></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Kate S. Moriarty, MSW, MLS | Rare Book Catalog Librarian | Associate Professor | Pius XII Memorial Library | <br>Saint Louis University | 3650 Lindell Blvd . | St. Louis, MO 63108 | (314) 977-3024 (tel) | (314) 977-3108 (fax) | <a href="mailto:moriarks@slu.edu" target="_blank">moriarks@slu.edu</a> | <a href="http://libraries.slu.edu/" target="_blank">http://libraries.slu.edu/</a>
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