<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Those following this thread may be interested to see ALA's response to the proposal, combining input from us and other CC:DA members and liaisons.<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.rda-jsc.org/docs/6JSC-LC-28-ALA-response.pdf">http://www.rda-jsc.org/docs/6JSC-LC-28-ALA-response.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>Responses from ALA regarding the other proposals are being posted here as they are received: <span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">(</span><a href="http://www.rda-jsc.org/workingnew.html" target="_blank" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.rda-jsc.org/workingnew.html</a><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">)</span><br><div><br></div><div>These responses, along with those from other RDA constituencies, will be taken into consideration when the JSC meets November 4-8. </div><div><br></div><div>Matthew</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Sep 8, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The basic problem is the old AACR2 procedure was found to be too confusing for people, so RDA wanted to eliminate the distinction between characterization of the work and nature of the responsibility—and I agree, this<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>is</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>sometimes a somewhat arcane distinction. If the JSC wants to go back to that distinction then yes, the answer is simply to reinsert the AACR2 language. But I don’t think that’s the result wanted. Though the rare community could argue for that if it likes.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I personally think the current RDA language is fine, leaving it up to the cataloger’s judgment. If that means somebody records information as part of a statement of responsibility that I would have recorded as other title information, I’m fine with that—I don’t think differences in this choice will sink the Good Ship Shared Cataloging Environment.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bob<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Robert L. Maxwell<br>Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger<br>6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>Brigham Young University<br>Provo, UT 84602<br>(801)422-5568<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Deborah J. Leslie<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, September 05, 2014 4:14 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>DCRM Users' Group<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [DCRM-L] Revision to RDA 2.4.1.8 (Noun Phrase Occurring with a Statement of Responsibility)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Georgia, serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Georgia, serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Georgia, serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">Am finally catching up with discussions that have been occurring. I, too, agree with Francis and Richard. What is the outcome—does Matthew take this back to CC:DA to incorporate this community's opinions in ALA's response?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Georgia, serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);"> </span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(49, 132, 155);">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library |<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">djleslie@folger.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>| 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. <a href="http://folger.edu">folger.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Georgia, serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Lapka, Francis<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, 13 August 2014 14:48<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>DCRM Users' Group<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [DCRM-L] Revision to RDA 2.4.1.8 (Noun Phrase Occurring with a Statement of Responsibility)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I agree with Richard. The current RDA guideline needs a revision, but this proposal places too much emphasis on sequence, layout, and typography. The character of the noun phrase<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>has</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>to be the primary (and sometimes only) indication of where it belongs.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The proposal is less coherent than its parallels in AACR2 and DCRM(B). The proposed wording of the if-and statement also implies that the noun phrase must always be recorded with Other Title Information if the sequence, layout, and typography suggest no preference—no matter how strong the indication of character in the noun phrase. I doubt this is the outcome the authors intend.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Francis<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Noble, Richard<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:29 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>DCRM Revision Group List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[DCRM-L] Revision to RDA 2.4.1.8 (Noun Phrase Occurring with a Statement of Responsibility)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;">I don't see any improvement in the proposed revision, as well as further drawbacks, and find the AACR instructions generally more coherent. The question isn't a matter of typography, but has to do with whether the information is useful in a display which includes both the title proper and other title information, but not the statement of responsibility.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;">If the noun phrase characterizes the work or expression as a whole, then it ought to be associated with the title proper as, well,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>other</i> title information. If the noun phrase has to do with the nature of the responsibility of the person or persons named, then it's part of the statement of responsibility. There will<i>always</i> be grey areas, but with such guidelines in mind there will be a tendency to coherent if not always invariable results in the work of cataloguers.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;">The revision to regard typographical layout--which may have much more to do with visual design than with intellectual content--<i>does</i> result in intellectual incoherence. If the same words are differently disposed in another manifestation, then the 245s won't match.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: 'Courier New';">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: 'Courier New';">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: 'Courier New';"><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-family: 'Courier New';">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family: 'Courier New';"><a href="http://own.edu/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">own.edu</a>></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>