<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">I think plates may have come this way--later Burns printings in this country (late ca. 1850s onwards) sometimes were printed from rather tired British plates--I think. It was a long time ago that I worked with that collection, before I'd done much work with books other than C18 British ones.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">It appears that American book printers didn't print directly from type, but from plates (this is perhaps too summarily stated, from Michael Winship). Compositors would set signatures, but in many many cases no book was ever printed from the plates with the indicated structure. In that way the link between composition and presswork was pretty much severed, though signatures, being habitual, kept appearing. British books retained them into the late c20, and I've never met one with a non-matching structure.<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><font face="'courier new', monospace">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</font><div><font face="'courier new', monospace">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</font></div><div><span style="font-family:'courier new',monospace"><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" style="font-family:'courier new',monospace" target="_blank">Richard_Noble@Br</a><span style="font-family:'courier new',monospace"><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a></span><span style="font-family:'courier new',monospace">></span></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366">I'm trying to think whether I've ever seen that practice in a British book. I think not, but will pay more attention. However, weren't plates sold or exchanged between
North America and Britain? <u></u><u></u></span></p><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#31849b">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | <a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">djleslie@folger.edu</a> | <a href="tel:202.675-0369" value="+12026750369" target="_blank">202.675-0369</a> | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. <a href="http://folger.edu" target="_blank">folger.edu</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#993366"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</span><div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ted P Gemberling<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 26 September 2014 11:58</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Linde,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I remember in the Rare Book School course I took from Richard, he suggested that maybe this is peculiar to American books because technological change was faster
in America than in Europe. American printers were more likely to use plates with signatures that were meaningful in an earlier edition but no longer in the new one. Did I get this right, Richard? I don’t want to misrepresent what you said. But it is an interesting
phenomenon. I’m glad I don’t have to worry about it at my library because we don’t put signatures on any books from the machine printing period, when the method of printing from plates was invented. It must have been a great technological advance when it was
invented! Imagine not having to set the type again for each edition. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Ted Gemberling<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">UAB Lister Hill Library
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Linde B.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 10:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">I was not calling into question the AAS's cataloging, by any means. I was simply curious about what the phenomenon actually was and what it signified,
which you've elucidated wonderfully, Richard.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Linde<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Noble, Richard <<a href="mailto:richard_noble@brown.edu" target="_blank">richard_noble@brown.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">The signatures are referred to as "unused". They are an element of the printing plates, which could actually be arranged on the press in a different way, that is,
to produce a different format, and often were.<br>
<br>
In some cases the plates contained two sets of signatures--often alphabetical signatures for 8s and numerical signatures for 12s--and in many cases neither set was used. This is a strictly American practice, as far as I've ever seen--I've never seen it in a
British or continental book. It became so ridiculous that American printers generally abandoned the use of signatures altogether over the course of the 1870s.<br>
<br>
It is often possible to establish the actual structure of the book (the arrangement of the leaves into gatherings), but unless you're familiar with the phenomenon, and confident about your ability to analyze the structure, there's no reason worry about a collation.
It's still possible to state what the signatures are purely as an element of the printing plates, without saying anything about format. Still, for most situations, a good account of the pagination will suffice.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">This is an early example, and I'd certainly remark on it for its value as evidence regarding American printing practice of the period and place--but Deborah's quite
right to suggest being content with the AAS record--they're ... ummm ... pretty good at cataloging.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">FWIW, there are examples of formal treatment in the Brown University catalog:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://josiah.brown.edu/search/X=%22unused+signatures%22" target="_blank">http://josiah.brown.edu/search/X=%22unused+signatures%22</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: <a href="tel:401-863-1187" value="+14018631187" target="_blank">401-863-1187</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Linde B. <<a href="mailto:linde.brocato@gmail.com" target="_blank">linde.brocato@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Just out of curiosity, why?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Are they meaningless?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Is this just too modern for us?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Linde M. Brocato<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#351c75">"I went out to the kitchen to make coffee -- yards of coffee.
<br>
Rich, strong, bitter, boiling hot, ruthless, depraved. The lifeblood of tired men."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#351c75">--Raymond Chandler,
<i>The Long Goodbye</i></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:right" align="right">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
<span style="color:#351c75">Food which is grown under conditions of oppression is ripe for rejection;
<br>
overly-packaged and environmentally insensitive products seem indulgent; <br>
foods full of empty calories, cholesterol, fats and sugars do nothing to promote health and eviscerate the image of the Divine in which we are created.<br>
--Reconstructionist Rabbi Richard Hirsh<br>
<br>
"It's always because we love that we are rebellious; it takes a great deal of<br>
love to give a damn one way or another what happens from now on: I still do."<br>
Kenneth Patchen, Poet & Painter<br>
<br>
Hell is the state in which we are barred from receiving what we truly need because of the value we give to what we merely want. -- Jacob Needleman,
<i>Money and the Meaning of Life<br>
<br>
</i>Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new end.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#351c75">"I went out to the kitchen to make coffee -- yards of coffee.
<br>
Rich, strong, bitter, boiling hot, ruthless, depraved. The lifeblood of tired men."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#351c75">--Raymond Chandler,
<i>The Long Goodbye</i></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:right" align="right">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
<span style="color:#351c75">Food which is grown under conditions of oppression is ripe for rejection;
<br>
overly-packaged and environmentally insensitive products seem indulgent; <br>
foods full of empty calories, cholesterol, fats and sugars do nothing to promote health and eviscerate the image of the Divine in which we are created.<br>
--Reconstructionist Rabbi Richard Hirsh<br>
<br>
"It's always because we love that we are rebellious; it takes a great deal of<br>
love to give a damn one way or another what happens from now on: I still do."<br>
Kenneth Patchen, Poet & Painter<br>
<br>
Hell is the state in which we are barred from receiving what we truly need because of the value we give to what we merely want. -- Jacob Needleman,
<i>Money and the Meaning of Life<br>
<br>
</i>Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new end.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>