<div dir="ltr"><div>I agree that the rare materials use case for a pagination statement such as "[12], 72, [10], 48, [6], 228, [16] pages" has do with <i>numbering</i>, not extent. Such statements help document what's in a book (leaves, printing, etc.) They don't measure anything. </div><div><br></div><div>I would suggest a numbering element, to include pagination, foliation, <i>and</i> signature/collation statements.</div><div><br></div><div>I do like the aspect-unit-quantity model for true measurements. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Allison</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Lapka, Francis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:francis.lapka@yale.edu" target="_blank">francis.lapka@yale.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks Deborah.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d">I assume that you are advocating for the infinitely more sensible: [12], 72, [10], 48, [6], 228, [16] pages<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d">If RDA adopts the idea of a separate element for pagination and foliation, I wonder if there’s now a stronger argument for reverting to the traditional form for such statements. That
is, if pagination is a sort of transcription (now divorced from extent), and if the identification of unnumbered pages is a form of supplied information within a transcription,
<i>then</i> RDA (per 2.2.4) tells us that the use of square brackets is a valid way to indicate that the information is supplied. So the traditional format for recording pagination would actually be more in tune with RDA principles (for transcription) than
the “unnumbered pages” nonsense.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d">I’d be happy to raise this idea when we present the proposal to CC:DA (what fun that discussion might be!); and/or Matthew or I could post such an argument on the CC:DA blog, in advance
of the meeting.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Deborah J. Leslie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] revision of extent, dimensions, etc. (ALA proposal)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:ArialMT">I think the general proposal makes excellent sense. However, I am dismayed to see that the pagination and foliation element would still leave us with this ungainly
statement: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:ArialMT"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:ArialMT">12 unnumbered pages, 72 pages, 10 unnumbered pages, 48<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:ArialMT">pages, 6 unnumbered pages, 228 pages, 16 unnumbered<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:ArialMT">pages</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#993366"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#993366"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#31849b">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library |
</span><a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#31849b"> | <a href="tel:202.675-0369" value="+12026750369" target="_blank">202.675-0369</a> | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. <a href="http://folger.edu" target="_blank">folger.edu</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#993366"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> [</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapka, Francis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 10 June 2015 10:04<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] revision of extent, dimensions, etc. (ALA proposal)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Hi all.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I call your attention to an RDA revision proposal that will be discussed in the CC:DA meeting at Annual:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Task Force on Machine-Actionable Data Elements in RDA Chapter 3 : Revision Proposal<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__alcts.ala.org_ccdablog_-3Fp-3D2032&d=AwMFAg&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=AIMB40I0lcZrVq_HfybnwsKNYFjzXEqHWIEqujk9Jy0&s=B1LZA2oMP_sCOiM2VXJuP5xz7CiFf9ouiFBkXbFTPJU&e=" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">http://alcts.ala.org/ccdablog/?p=2032</span></a><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">The proposal suggests major changes to RDA for Extent and Dimensions, as well as Duration. The primary aim is to allow numerical measurements to be recorded in a machine-actionable fashion, applying
controlled vocabularies for measurement types, units, etc. In so doing, RDA would incorporate changes already introduced in cataloging standards of the museum and archival communities. The potential benefits are best outlined in the task force’s first discussion
paper: </span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__alcts.ala.org_ccdablog_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_2012_06_tf-2Dmrdata3.pdf&d=AwMFAg&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=AIMB40I0lcZrVq_HfybnwsKNYFjzXEqHWIEqujk9Jy0&s=mUAA8fwJAa4VOKNgCjaiMyyJ4eR49OKUP4FaDa5Ds0M&e=" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">http://alcts.ala.org/ccdablog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tf-mrdata3.pdf</span></a><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Now let’s get to the fun stuff.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">In its review of Extent, the task force proposes greater adherence to the FRBR model by creating a new data element for Extent of the Content. For some formats, it has long been standard practice
to record a quantification of content as Extent, e.g. 3 maps, 1 drawing, or 2 scores. The proposal suggests that such information should now be recorded as an attribute of the Expression. For the DCRM community, this change most impacts descriptions for Cartographic,
Graphic, and Music resources. Extent of the <i>carrier</i> for such material would now be recorded in terms of sheets, volumes, etc., as appropriate (for more, see page 134 of the proposal).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">The proposal also suggests a change that would impact all DCRM formats: a new element for Pagination and Foliation, which would re-purpose many of the instructions in RDA 3.4.5 Extent of Text. We
suggest this change because pagination and foliation data is fundamentally different than that recorded for other varieties of Extent of the Carrier. That is, only for subunits of volumes do we emphasize how the resource
<i>self-represents</i> its numeration. This practice is more like transcription than true measurement (for more, see pages 9-11 and 56 of the proposal).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I’m happy to explain (and/or reconsider) anything in the proposal that is unclear or troublesome.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">For those of you thinking “Egad!” or other oaths, rest assured that these changes are too major to be introduced quickly; and in places, there’s still obvious work to do. You will have plenty of
opportunity to shape how the proposal goes forward. Matthew Haugen (RBMS Liaison to CC:DA), Liz O’Keefe (ARLIS/NA Liaison to CC:DA, and contributor the proposal), and I are all keen to convey your sentiments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Francis<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Francis Lapka · Catalog Librarian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Department of Rare Books and Manuscripts<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Yale Center for British Art<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif"><a href="tel:203.432.9672" value="+12034329672" target="_blank">203.432.9672</a> ·
</span><a href="mailto:francis.lapka@yale.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">francis.lapka@yale.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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