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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">Bob does have a point, in that the rare materials community more or less hijacked the existing 510 for our own purposes. Nevertheless, even the 510 in its broadest definition refers
to other sources that contain information about the described item. As Francis says, Maxted does not describe or refer to the item being cataloged and so does not belong in a 510. For the Hunter reference, it's a mere mention, right, and you've quoted it?
I don't see that it's a service to users to include as a separate reference a resource that isn't going to offer anything more than what's already given in the record.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">I do like the idea of structured descriptions for citing general sources used to justify/provide additional information.
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">(Just not in the 510.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#31849B">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie@folger.edu | 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapka, Francis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 10 August 2015 16:29<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] 510 citations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">The second example (Maxted) doesn't count as a bibliographic description. Maxted describes the person (Cary), not the bibliographic resource; so we should avoid use of a 510 in that
context.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Francis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] on behalf of Robert Maxwell [robert_maxwell@byu.edu]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 10, 2015 3:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] 510 citations</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m not sure I understand exactly what Deborah’s plea is for, but if it means “please only cite formal bibliographies (or catalogues raisonnés, etc.)”, I note that that is not
how 510 is defined in the MARC format. Its general scope is defined as “Citations or references to published bibliographic descriptions, reviews, abstracts, or indexes of the content of the described item.” So in the first place it covers a lot more ground
than just bibliographic descriptions; and second, “bibliographic description” is nowhere defined and to my mind it covers more ground than the narrow sense of “bibliography.” Later, in fact, when the scope narrows itself to defining how the field is used in
particular formats, it says “for books and music, this field contains references to
<i>published descriptions</i> of the item” (similar language for the other formats), which also covers a lot more ground than just bibliographies.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think all the examples Manon has given us so far fall under the broad umbrella of “bibliographic description;” and even if not there’s no question in my mind that they fall
under the umbrella of “published descriptions.” I don’t agree with attempting to impose a narrower definition of what can be recorded in the field than the one actually in the MARC format documentation.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bob</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568 <br>
<br>
"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erin Blake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 10, 2015 12:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] 510 citations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I'm with Deborah -- keep the 510 for bibliographic descriptions of the material.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In addition to the reasons already given, I'd add convenience for the user: you don't have to bounce between the 500 and the 510 to get the relevant citation because it's right
there next to the relevant note, not buried in a list of four other references. And users can be sure the list of references in the 510 are specific to the resource, not to the record.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">EB.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">_______</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Erin C. Blake, Ph.D. | Head of Collection Information Services | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 | <a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank">eblake@folger.edu</a> | office tel. <a href="tel:%2B1%20202-675-0323" target="_blank">+1
202-675-0323</a> | fax <a href="tel:%2B1%20202-675-0328" target="_blank">+1 202-675-0328</a> | <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.folger.edu_&d=AwMGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=5WWQDfQHfqna2ROKR2OXFhnhpEuNUxzqvf7ITeH6Jpk&s=RRUHhT9rVruiZ73oAvEpEvkj1frWTeHLp2U0NHn-y1U&e=" target="_blank">www.folger.edu</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Deborah J. Leslie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 10, 2015 2:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] 510 citations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#244061"><heartfelt plea>Please, please don't dilute the meaning of the 510 to include sources that do not provide bibliographical descriptions of the items being cataloged! If we want to
be able to provide structured descriptions to sources that justify or provide other types of information, let's find another way, say, by proposing a new indicator that would generate a different label. Or by waiting until we have more flexibility with robust
linked data with bibframe. </heartfelt plea> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#31849B">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library |
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">djleslie@folger.edu</a> | 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Attar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 10 August 2015 03:50<br>
<b>To:</b> 'DCRM Users' Group'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] 510 citations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I agree with Manon. The example strikes me as beautifully succinct in the form she presents it: it works!</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Karen</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dr Karen Attar</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Rare Books Librarian</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Senate House Library, University of London</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Senate House</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Malet St</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">London</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">WC1E 7HU</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Tel. 020 7862 8472</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__research.sas.ac.uk_search_fellow_516_dr-2Dkaren-2Dattar_&d=AwMGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=5WWQDfQHfqna2ROKR2OXFhnhpEuNUxzqvf7ITeH6Jpk&s=HDFjezntefsnOxVGDBIusuB7C7lUOZZvMpQ5CNc-XAk&e=" target="_blank">http://research.sas.ac.uk/search/fellow/516/dr-karen-attar/</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">The University of London is an exempt charity in England and Wales. We are committed to achieving a 20% cut in emissions from University buildings by 2015. Please think
before you print</span></i><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manon Theroux<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 August 2015 21:23<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] 510 citations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">Here is a second example, somewhat different from the first, where the resource being cataloged is not described
in the reference source at all, even in brief form. So maybe there is a stronger case for avoiding the 510 field in this one? The reference source is being used to justify the supplied range of publication dates:<br>
<br>
26X ... $c [between 1791 and 1820?]<br>
500 John Cary was associated with the no. 181 Strand address between 1791 and 1820; see Maxted, I. London book trades, 1775-1800.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">vs.<br>
<br>
26X $c [between 1791 and 1820?]<br>
500 John Cary was associated with the no. 181 Strand address between 1791 and 1820; see Maxted<br>
510 Maxted, I. London book trades, 1775-1800</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">Maxted is not a bibliography or catalog. It is a directory (its subtitle is "a preliminary checklist of members") containing a list of book trade personnel. Each entry is annotated
with information about when/where that person/firm operated. At least some entries also include a list of books produced by the person/firm, but I don't know if such lists are intended to be complete. The entry for Cary does not cite the resource being cataloged;
a page number could be provided in the Maxted reference but it would refer only to the page on which the Cary entry appeared, not to a published description of the item being cataloged, so I omitted it (though in a 500 field I think it would not be as potentially
misleading as in a 510 field). </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">Note that Maxted also issued a separate related publication, with the same title proper and the subtitle "a topographical guide ..."), which appears to be organized by street
address rather than by person/firm. So, maybe the citation form in 500/510 would need some qualifying information, which I think SCF principles would have us add in parentheses, something like this:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">Maxted, I. London book trades, 1775-1800 (preliminary checklist of members)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">Both of these Maxted works have been (or are in the process of being) coverted to online resources on the Exeter Working Papers in Book History website:
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__bookhistory.blogspot.co.uk_&d=AwMGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=5WWQDfQHfqna2ROKR2OXFhnhpEuNUxzqvf7ITeH6Jpk&s=6HfW1ogeNHPne1BXEA2hsdQoMlO_0c4J-JRoVrL_yRw&e=" target="_blank">
http://bookhistory.blogspot.co.uk/</a> (see under London>Book trade personnel, 1775-1800)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:black">Manon</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Manon Theroux <<a href="mailto:manon.theroux@gmail.com" target="_blank">manon.theroux@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Deborah,<br>
<br>
Thanks! I had actually been about to follow up my original message with an example. I'll send it anyway.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I was wavering between the following two approaches:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="margin-left:30.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">500 "Probably the first publication to be printed on American machine-made paper"--Hunter, D. Papermaking (2nd ed.), page 351<br>
<br>
vs.<br>
<br>
500 "Probably the first publication to be printed on American machine-made paper"--Hunter.<br>
510 Hunter, D. Papermaking (2nd ed.), $c page 351</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Hunter is a history of papermaking, not a bibliography or catalog. The sentence in Hunter that contains the quoted text actually does cite the atlas being cataloged, but only briefly; wasn't sure it qualified
as a "published description": </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="margin-left:30.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">" ... the well-known book-printing firm of Matthew Carey and Son, Philadelphia, used the Gilpin paper for the text, charts, and maps
of the 1820 and 1821 editions of N. Lavoisne's <i>A Complete Genealogical, Historical, Chronological, and Geographical Atlas</i>, probably the first publication to be printed on American machine-made paper."</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I guess even if Hunter doesn't go in a 510, the form of the Hunter citation in the 500 could still follow SCF guidelines (even if it
shouldn't be proposed for inclusion in SCF because it doesn't fit the stated scope).
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888">Manon</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Deborah J. Leslie <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">Hi Manon,</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">I have always understood that the 510 is to be reserved for published bibliographical descriptions, despite the MARC format’s broader scope, and that references to other kinds of
sources belong in a general note. </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library |
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.ed" target="_blank">djleslie@folger.ed</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manon Theroux<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 20 July 20 2015 14:41<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Revision Group List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] 510 citations</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">Hi, everyone:<br>
<br>
I could use some clarification on citing resources in the MARC21 510 field. If the resource to be cited is NOT a bibliography or catalog and doesn't contain a bibliographic description of the resource being cataloged, can the 510 field still be used for the
citation or should the citation be incorporated into the general note? For example, citing an entry for a printer in a biographical dictionary to justified supplied dates in the 26X or citing an academic monograph to justify an attributed name. DCRM(B) suggests
that you can ("or other authoritative reference sources") and points to SCF as a standard, but the SCF scope statement itself is a bit narrower: "bibliographies and catalogs (printed or electronic) that are useful in verifying, identifying, or describing items
held in rare book or special collections libraries and that have been or are likely to be cited in bibliographic records, trade catalog descriptions, and bibliographies."
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Below are the relevant bits from DCRM(B), SCF, and MARC21.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Manon<br>
<br>
--<br>
Manon Théroux<br>
Head of Technical Services<br>
U.S. Senate Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">===================<br>
DCRM(B):<br>
7B14. References to published descriptions<br>
7B14.1. Give references to published descriptions in bibliographies or other authoritative reference sources if these have been used to supply elements of the description. Use the form and punctuation conventions recommended by Standard Citation Forms for Published
Bibliographies and Catalogs Used in Rare Book Cataloging. Begin the note with the word “References” and a colon.<br>
References: Evans 24658<br>
(Comment: Made in conjunction with a general note reading: “Publication date<br>
from Evans”)<br>
<br>
7B14.2. Make other references to published descriptions, if considered important. Such references are especially useful whenever the cited source would serve to distinguish an edition (or variant) from similar editions (or variants), substantiate information
provided by the cataloger, or provide a more detailed description of the publication being cataloged.<br>
References: Gaskell, P. Baskerville, 17<br>
References: ESTC (CD-ROM, 2003 ed.) T60996<br>
References: Lindsay & Neu. French political pamphlets, 2194<br>
References: BM STC Italian, 1465-1600, p. 368<br>
References: Ritter, F. Incun. alsaciens de la Bib. nat. de Strasbourg, 277<br>
References: Palau y Dulcet (2. ed.) 19161<br>
<br>
7B14.3. A general note may be made if a description of the publication being cataloged does not appear in a specific bibliographical reference source. Make such a note only if the publication fits the scope for that source and the source purports to be comprehensive
for its scope. Preface the general note with the words “Not in” and a colon.<br>
Not in: Martin & Walter. Révolution française. Cf. IV:2, 9093<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
-----------------------<br>
SCF Working Principles <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rbms.info_scf_working-2Dprinciples_&d=AwMGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=5WWQDfQHfqna2ROKR2OXFhnhpEuNUxzqvf7ITeH6Jpk&s=g3-1jl_bDnfjTXk7P_QqYjoVKrd6Tyuo140gSETv-l8&e=" target="_blank">
http://rbms.info/scf/working-principles/</a><br>
<br>
Scope: <br>
<br>
This database includes bibliographies and catalogs (printed or electronic) that are useful in verifying, identifying, or describing items held in rare book or special collections libraries and that have been or are likely to be cited in bibliographic records,
trade catalog descriptions, and bibliographies.<br>
<br>
MARC 21 Bibliographic Format, Application:<br>
<br>
Use the citation forms recommended in this list when creating citation/references notes (field 510) in a MARC 21 bibliographic record. These notes are described in Descriptive Cataloging for Rare Materials (Books) 7B14.2 and other DCRM manuals.<br>
<br>
The citation/references note (510) field provides a simple bibliographical citation for a published description of an item and specifies where in the resources that description appears; do not include other information. If necessary, use a general note (field
500) to record additional information provided by the resource cited. Create a citation/references note (510) field for titles which might be useful for retrieval, even in cases where this would involve repetition of information already recorded in a general
note:<br>
<br>
General note (500) field:<br>
<br>
500 __ $a Evans calls this the 2nd edition.<br>
<br>
Citation/references note (510) field:<br>
<br>
510 4_ $a Evans, C. American bibliography, $c entry 14023<br>
<br>
-----------------------<br>
MARC21, 510 Field <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.loc.gov_marc_bibliographic_bd510.html&d=AwMGaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=t7GDkvcZa922K6iya7a6MxgVxxw7OjL0m1rPBXkflk4&m=5WWQDfQHfqna2ROKR2OXFhnhpEuNUxzqvf7ITeH6Jpk&s=ss4YiTWbDbQMJXRIUxJnZ-MAcAiEt0P5iY-ITpbJRms&e=" target="_blank">
https://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/bd510.html</a><br>
<br>
Definition and Scope:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p><span style="color:black">Citations or references to published bibliographic descriptions, reviews, abstracts, or indexes of the content of the described item.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="color:black">Used to specify where an item has been cited or reviewed. Citations or references may be given in a brief form (i.e., using generally recognizable abbreviations, etc.). The actual text of a published description is not recorded
in field 510 but rather in field 520 (Summary, Etc. Note). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">For <b>books</b> and <b>music</b>, this field contains references to published descriptions of the item (e.g., descriptions of rare materials recorded in a brief, standardized format) or reviews (e.g., reviews in professional literature).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">For <b>continuing resources</b>, this field is used to specify publications in which a continuing resource has been indexed and/or abstracted and the dates of coverage, if known. The indexing and abstracting services referenced
are primarily those issued as continuing resources. Certain monographic titles, particularly those that are standard reference tools in a subject area or that cover periods of time not included in continuing publications, may also be given in this field.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">For unpublished <b>visual materials</b> or graphic items collectively controlled, this field contains references to published descriptions of the work or collection. Citations to reviews of projected
<b>visual materials</b> are also recorded in this field. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">For <b>mixed materials</b>, this field contains references to publications in which abstracts, citations, descriptions, or indexes of the described materials have appeared.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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