<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Looks good to me; and thanks to Jane Carpenter for suggesting a good format for subsitute signatures, in situations where transcription of the printed signatures results in a messy and not very helpful formula. - Richard</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><font face="'courier new', monospace">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</font><div><font face="'courier new', monospace">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</font></div><div><span style="font-family:'courier new',monospace"><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" style="font-family:'courier new',monospace" target="_blank">Richard_Noble@Br</a><span style="font-family:'courier new',monospace"><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a></span><span style="font-family:'courier new',monospace">></span></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Schneider, Nina <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu" target="_blank">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Richard,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks for these suggestions. First, yes, it’s 17, not 16, gatherings in 6’s—my mistake.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I feel like using pi^4 in this statement is correct because the first four leaves are unsigned. The fifth leaf (and beginning of a new gathering) is 1. So,
technically, this is more or less the same thing as pi^4 A-R^6 S^2.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here’s my new statement:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Signatures: pi⁴ [1]-[17]⁶ [18]²; the first 3 leaves of gatherings [1]-[17] are signed continuously from 1 to 51; first leaf of gathering [18] is signed 52.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Nina<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 12:18 PM</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">To resolve any residual uncertainty in a reader's mind concerning a rather odd phenomenon (as in "I
<i>think</i> I know what Nina means"), perhaps it could be phrased "first 3 leaves of gatherings 1-16 are numbered continuously from 1 to 51 (1,2,3,x,x,x/4,5,6,x,x,x/ ... /49,50,51,x,x,x); the first leaf of gathering 17 is numbered 52."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Partly this is because the leaves aren't really "numbered continuously"--the numbering of leaves isn't actually continuous, but meaningfully discontinuous (it's bifolia that are being continuously
numbered); but I don't think "numbered cumulatively" resolves the uncertainty any better, and introducing the term "bifolia" begins to remind one of origami concentration camp. Better to risk slightly ridiculous explicitness than to court uncertainty.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Umm... It isn't <span style="color:black">[1]-[17]</span></span><span style="font-family:"Cambria Math","serif";color:black">⁶</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black"> [18]</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black">²</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black">?
</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black">Also, though it might seem odd to use "pi" in a formula that appears to be inferred throughout, I think it's just right in this context: the bibliographer's system is being substituted for that
of the printer. There are good reasons why this system of "signing" was very little used ...</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black">FWIW: Is this perhaps an 18mo?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: <a href="tel:401-863-1187" value="+14018631187" target="_blank">401-863-1187</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Schneider, Nina <<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu" target="_blank">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks to Jane (and Richard and Joseph), here’s what I came up with:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Signatures: pi⁴ [1]-[16]⁶ [17]²; first 3 leaves of each gathering are numbered continuously from
1 to 51; first leaf of last gathering is numbered 52.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Would this make sense if you were reading the description without the book in hand?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 11:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures<u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I like Jane's approach. It serves the formulary purpose quite elegantly, without saying (falsely) that the book is unsigned. The underlying
principle is that one uses the printer's designations of gatherings <i>if</i> they are not confusing in the context of a collational formula.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: <a href="tel:401-863-1187" target="_blank">401-863-1187</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Carpenter, Jane <<a href="mailto:jfcarpenter@library.ucla.edu" target="_blank">jfcarpenter@library.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Nina,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I had a similar situation with parts of a 1520 Venetian Talmud—</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I gave the collation in brackets, and then in a note, explained that the first four leaves of each
gathering were numbered continuously:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here’s the note as I wrote it:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[part 4 (Nezikin), 8]: Avodah Zarah [1520]]: 97 leaves; signatures: [1]-[11]⁸ [12]¹⁰; final blank
leaf [12]₁₀ wanting; first 4 leaves of each gathering are numbered continuously from 1 to 44; first 5 leaves of last gathering numbered 44-49. ‡5 CLUS</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 9:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">"Continuous bifolium numeration"--certainly as good a term as any--is obviously analogous to the direction numbering that one occasionally
encounters in later books. Per Bowers one treats such gatherings as "unsigned", which is fine if they're isolated pi's or chi's; but because Nina's example is numbered in a way that could be used for reference, one searches for a way to incorporate the numbers
into a formula.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Maybe (I dunno) 1/2/3-49/50/51^6 52^2? Explanation will be required, whatever one does, and it could just as well be [unsigned, 1-17^6
18^2], which tells the structural story very neatly, but doesn't work very well for reference; and a formula that doesn't refer well doesn't quite fulfill its purpose.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: <a href="tel:401-863-1187" target="_blank">401-863-1187</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Joseph Ross <<a href="mailto:jross@nd.edu" target="_blank">jross@nd.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nina,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I seem to remember this as one of the unusual signature patterns of the manuscript period. The term that comes to mind is "continuous bifolia numeration." There is no quire signature
but the bifolia are numbered continuously from beginning to end. It was not a common practice. I don't remember if any printers used it. Sorry I don't have any references I can quote.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Joseph Ross</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Rare Books Cataloger</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">University of Notre Dame</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Schneider, Nina <<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu" target="_blank">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Another question for the advance bibliographers amongst us...<br>
<br>
I have in my hand the French translation of Hystoyre et plaisante cronicque. It is printed in 1793/4 (an II) in Paris. It is signed in such a way that I'm at a loss on how to record it.<br>
<br>
It starts off innocently enough: pi^4 but then this happens (and this is a page-by page recreation):<br>
1,2,3, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 4, 5,6, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 7,8,9, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 10, 11, 12, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned] ... 49, 50, 51 [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 52, [unsigned].<br>
<br>
Is there a way to capture this in a signature statement or do I just include the whole thing? Bowers is failing me.<br>
<br>
Chain lines run vertical. My uncut copy is 14 cm high.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance!<br>
<br>
Nina<br>
<br>
+---------------<br>
Nina M. Schneider<br>
Rare Books Librarian<br>
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library<br>
2520 Cimarron Street<br>
Los Angeles, CA 90018<br>
<a href="tel:%28323%29%20731-8529" target="_blank">(323) 731-8529</a><br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu" target="_blank">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://www.clarklibrary.ucla.edu/" target="_blank">http://www.clarklibrary.ucla.edu/</a><br>
<br>
** Please note that the Clark Library is currently CLOSED for our seismic retrofit **<br>
****************************************************************************<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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