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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks to Jane (and Richard and Joseph), here’s what I came up with:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Signatures: pi⁴ [1]-[16]⁶ [17]²; first 3 leaves of each gathering are numbered continuously from 1 to 51; first leaf of last gathering is numbered 52.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Would this make sense if you were reading the description without the book in hand?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 11:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I like Jane's approach. It serves the formulary purpose quite elegantly, without saying (falsely) that the book is unsigned. The underlying principle is that one uses the printer's designations
of gatherings <i>if</i> they are not confusing in the context of a collational formula.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Carpenter, Jane <<a href="mailto:jfcarpenter@library.ucla.edu" target="_blank">jfcarpenter@library.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Nina,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I had a similar situation with parts of a 1520 Venetian Talmud—</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I gave the collation in brackets, and then in a note, explained that the first four leaves of each
gathering were numbered continuously:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here’s the note as I wrote it:
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">[part 4 (Nezikin), 8]: Avodah Zarah [1520]]: 97 leaves; signatures: [1]-[11]⁸ [12]¹⁰; final blank
leaf [12]₁₀ wanting; first 4 leaves of each gathering are numbered continuously from 1 to 44; first 5 leaves of last gathering numbered 44-49. ‡5 CLUS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 9:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">"Continuous bifolium numeration"--certainly as good a term as any--is obviously analogous to the direction numbering that one occasionally
encounters in later books. Per Bowers one treats such gatherings as "unsigned", which is fine if they're isolated pi's or chi's; but because Nina's example is numbered in a way that could be used for reference, one searches for a way to incorporate the numbers
into a formula.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Maybe (I dunno) 1/2/3-49/50/51^6 52^2? Explanation will be required, whatever one does, and it could just as well be [unsigned, 1-17^6
18^2], which tells the structural story very neatly, but doesn't work very well for reference; and a formula that doesn't refer well doesn't quite fulfill its purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: <a href="tel:401-863-1187" target="_blank">401-863-1187</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Joseph Ross <<a href="mailto:jross@nd.edu" target="_blank">jross@nd.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nina,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I seem to remember this as one of the unusual signature patterns of the manuscript period. The term that comes to mind is "continuous bifolia numeration." There is no quire signature
but the bifolia are numbered continuously from beginning to end. It was not a common practice. I don't remember if any printers used it. Sorry I don't have any references I can quote.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#888888">Joseph Ross</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#888888">Rare Books Cataloger</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#888888">University of Notre Dame</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Schneider, Nina <<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu" target="_blank">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Another question for the advance bibliographers amongst us...<br>
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I have in my hand the French translation of Hystoyre et plaisante cronicque. It is printed in 1793/4 (an II) in Paris. It is signed in such a way that I'm at a loss on how to record it.<br>
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It starts off innocently enough: pi^4 but then this happens (and this is a page-by page recreation):<br>
1,2,3, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 4, 5,6, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 7,8,9, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 10, 11, 12, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned] ... 49, 50, 51 [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 52, [unsigned].<br>
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Is there a way to capture this in a signature statement or do I just include the whole thing? Bowers is failing me.<br>
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Chain lines run vertical. My uncut copy is 14 cm high.<br>
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Thanks in advance!<br>
<br>
Nina<br>
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+---------------<br>
Nina M. Schneider<br>
Rare Books Librarian<br>
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library<br>
2520 Cimarron Street<br>
Los Angeles, CA 90018<br>
<a href="tel:%28323%29%20731-8529" target="_blank">(323) 731-8529</a><br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu" target="_blank">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://www.clarklibrary.ucla.edu/" target="_blank">http://www.clarklibrary.ucla.edu/</a><br>
<br>
** Please note that the Clark Library is currently CLOSED for our seismic retrofit **<br>
****************************************************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
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