<div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks Erin- I suspected that might be an incorrect use of the (process) terms but didn't have the rule to confirm.</div><div><br></div><div>Even if that option isn't available, I'm mostly just pleased to have confirmation that it's not a crazy idea to at times apply two genre terms to the same illustration. Situations like in your <em>Mr. Sponge's Sporting Tour</em> example were what were making me wring my hands the most.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Matt</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Erin Blake <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:EBlake@folger.edu" target="_blank">EBlake@folger.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div class="m_-5371346975588680946WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Fear not, Richard. When I wrote "The safe bet would be to use the broader term 'Relief prints' and move on" I meant it literally: it's not incorrect, and it's
speedy. It's not necessarily preferable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Taking up Matt's example, I like the idea of being able to use the AAT terms
<a href="http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=wood+engraving&logic=AND¬e=&subjectid=300053303" target="_blank">
wood engraving (process)</a> and <a href="http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=wood+engraving&logic=AND¬e=&english=N&prev_page=1&subjectid=300041402" target="_blank">wood engravings (prints)</a> to distinguish illustration technique from printing technique, but
I'm not sure it can work that way. "Wood engraving (process)" is from the "Activities" facet, which is topical by implication: "wood engraving (process)" could be a 650 for a book about wood engraving, or for a picture of a wood engraver at work, but not a
655. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Appendix C of
<i>The Guide to Indexing and Cataloging with the Art & Architecture Thesaurus</i> (1994) explicitly says the 655 can only contain terms from the Information Forms, Object Genres, and Visual Works facets. <i>But</i> at some point down the road, AAT dropped
the Chart of MARC/AAT fields from the Guide. (At least, I can't find it in any of the online guides; it's a paper copy from 1994 that I have in front of me).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">This discussion is eerily well-timed….. on Friday, the Folger's Cataloging and Metadata department made the official decision to begin preferring AAT terms
over RBMS terms in the 655. (You heard it here first, folks…. We haven't yet globally changed any terms, and we haven't yet written up new help pages for catalog users).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">EB.<u></u><u></u></span></p><span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><br>
Erin C. Blake, Ph.D. | Head of Collection Information Services | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 | <a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank">eblake@folger.edu</a> | office tel. <a href="tel:%2B1%20202-675-0323" target="_blank">+1
202-675-0323</a> | fax <a href="tel:%2B1%20202-675-0328" target="_blank">+1 202-675-0328</a> | <a href="http://www.folger.edu/" target="_blank">www.folger.edu</a></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</span><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.<wbr>byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Matthew Ducmanas<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 07, 2017 5:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] illustration technique / reproduction technique<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for your response as well, Richard.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You make an interesting point about the translation process that can occur at various stages of the illustration's production. If anyone is interested in a good read touching a bit on that, I recently enjoyed Beegan's <i><a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/181072643" target="_blank">The
mass image : a cultural history of photomechanical reproduction in Victorian London</a></i> which examines the period of transition from wood engraving to photomechanical methods as the most popular reproduction method. It was fascinating to read about the
interplay between the two production methods, as well as the hybrid nature of some early process prints.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I wonder if any institutions make use of the AAT terms identifying process as opposed to print to call out distinctions like these. The thesaurus has both <a href="http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=wood+engraving&logic=AND¬e=&subjectid=300053303" target="_blank">wood
engraving (process)</a> and <a href="http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=wood+engraving&logic=AND¬e=&english=N&prev_page=1&subjectid=300041402" target="_blank">wood engravings (prints)</a> as terms. To take a more extreme example, would it makes sense to apply
the terms <i>offset lithographs </i>and <i>wood engraving (process)</i> to a modern reproduction of a wood engraving produced by offset lithography? This would correctly identify the physical thing in front of us while providing a form of access to the image's
original existence. Though I'm not sure if that is entirely satisfactory or is making correct use of the process terms. Perhaps visual materials catalogers have considered something similar.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matt<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Noble, Richard <<a href="mailto:richard_noble@brown.edu" target="_blank">richard_noble@brown.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Hmmm... I question Erin with some trepidation, but: if it make sense to flag both the illustration technique and the printing technology, would it not make sense, in cases of doubt as to the latter
but not the former, to flag the technique? The qualities of line and such that are characteristic of the technique are smudged, shall we say, by mixing the technique and the technology into a generalization.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">This is complicated by the fact that the
<i>illustrator's</i> technique may itself be a prior layer in the making of a wood-engraved illustration, though the resulting illustration is not a specimen of that technique. Still "Relief print" somehow fails to capture what one knows about basic qualities
of the illustration. What one <i>does</i> know about a stereo/electro of a wood-engraved illustration is that the appearance of the specimen has to do with its origination as a block of wood.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">A fine point: I gather that a stereotype may be distinguishable side-by-side from an electrotype of the same wood engraving: the softer stereo wears relatively quickly, if I recall--I noted this
in something I cataloged some while ago, but as is usual in such cases I can't manage to find it, now that it's relevant to a discussion. (It has to do with the printing of early editions of Jacob Abbott's "Rollo philosophy ..." books, with stereotyped text
and directly printed blocks--because, as I think it was Abbott himself who remarked in his account of the Harper Printing Establishment, stereotyping couldn't satisfactorily reproduce fine lines, which became possible with electrotyping.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: <a href="tel:(401)%20863-1187" target="_blank">401-863-1187</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Erin Blake <<a href="mailto:EBlake@folger.edu" target="_blank">EBlake@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-right:0in;margin-left:4.8pt">
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Great question. One of the points I like to make when teaching "The History of Printed Book Illustration
in the West" at Rare Book school is that, from the 19th century onward, "illustration technique" and "printing technique" don't always match.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">My go-to example for class discussion is an 1860s edition of
<i>Mr. Sponge's Sporting Tour</i>. The list of illustrations is headed "Engravings on steel" even though they're actually transfer lithographs of steel engravings (which were printed from steel plates in the first edition, 1853). So… what are they, engravings
or lithographs? The point of the discussion is to explore the divide between "illustration technique" as an aesthetic choice and "printing technique" as a practical matter of book production. People in class generally come around to agreeing that the
<i>illustration</i> technique is steel engraving, and the <i>printing</i> technique is transfer lithography, so both terms are appropriate.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">If it's institutional policy to provide access to specific types of print, and you know for-sure
what both are, then I'd provide both terms in the 655, and an explanatory note, e.g. "Illustrated with lithographically reproduced etchings."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">However…. as you say, it can be impossible to tell the difference between a wood engraving and a
stereotype of a wood engraving. The safe bet would be to use the broader term "Relief prints" and move on. Maybe someone down the line will find the answer in the publisher's archives. That also lets
<i>you</i> know that you didn't just forget to add the 655. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Erin.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">________</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><br>
Erin C. Blake, Ph.D. | Head of Collection Information Services | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 | <a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank">eblake@folger.edu</a> | office tel. <a href="tel:%2B1%20202-675-0323" target="_blank">+1
202-675-0323</a> | fax <a href="tel:%2B1%20202-675-0328" target="_blank">+1 202-675-0328</a> | <a href="http://www.folger.edu/" target="_blank">www.folger.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.<wbr>byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Matthew Ducmanas<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 04, 2017 8:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] illustration technique / reproduction technique</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">I recently posed a question regarding illustrations to some former Rare Book School colleagues as well as the always helpful Deborah J. Leslie. She
suggested I might ask it here as well.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">The question pertains largely to those of you who regularly trace illustration types in your records. Is there a common practice when tracing reproductions
of illustrations that differ in technique?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">For example, if you have an item containing wood engravings that have been either stereotyped or reproduced in some photoengraved fashion, do you still
use a 655 for wood engravings? Or do you leave the tracing off, or use something like 655 Line blocks? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">I can see utility in tracing an illustration made from a stereotyped wood engraving block as "Wood engravings" since the stereotype would make such
a close reproduction (not to even mention the difficulty of telling it apart from one printed from the original block). </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Though I imagine there has to be limits to this approach otherwise we'd end up in the strange situation of, for example, tracing a relief halftone
or offset lithograph reproduction as the original illustrative technique. I've seen books with relief halftone reproductions of etchings. Seems wrong to trace that as an etching.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Just curious if any of you have mulled over this at all or know of a common practice.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Matt</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Matthew Ducmanas</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Special Collections Cataloging Librarian</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Temple University Libraries</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Philadelphia, Pa.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><a href="mailto:matthew.ducmanas@temple.edu" target="_blank">matthew.ducmanas@temple.edu</a></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>215-204-20157</i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Matthew Ducmanas</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Special Collections Cataloging Librarian</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Temple University Libraries</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Philadelphia, Pa.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><a href="mailto:matthew.ducmanas@temple.edu" target="_blank">matthew.ducmanas@temple.edu</a></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>215-204-20157</i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr" style="text-align:left"><i>Matthew Ducmanas</i></div><div dir="ltr" style="text-align:left"><i>Special Collections Cataloging Librarian</i></div><div dir="ltr" style="text-align:left"><i>Temple University Libraries</i></div><div dir="ltr" style="text-align:left"><i>Philadelphia, Pa.</i></div></div><div style="text-align:left"><i><a href="mailto:matthew.ducmanas@temple.edu" target="_blank">matthew.ducmanas@temple.edu</a></i></div><div style="text-align:left"><i>215-204-20157</i></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>