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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I will be in the minority, but I don't have a problem with using "unnumbered" rather than square brackets even though our extent statements are often long. It's less esoteric in my opinion, though I hear others' arguments
that square brackets is a commonly known convention.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I'm fine with the RBMS PS decision to drop the optional note on complicated pagination in order to encourage recording full information in the extent statement. Same with omitting the note option for multi-volume works
paginated separately.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I'm torn on the question as to whether to create a PS saying to generally add the pagination of individual volumes of multi-volume works. It can be a huge burden when faced with an 18-volume set but "in general" does
not mean it's a requirement. I've seen errors on several occasions when catalogers have given the pagination but a couple of times was helped by it.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">My feeling on i.e. and sic, is that using "that is" and an English phrase for sic (still trying to think of one! "as transcribed"?) is more accessible than the Latin abbreviation and term.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">~Kate</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu> on behalf of Robert Maxwell <robert_maxwell@byu.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 3, 2018 12:15:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text</font>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The user base for rare records might or might not be more linguistically diverse than others using the database—finding out would require a user study, I should think. Similar, and perhaps more forceful, arguments
could be made for other user communities, for example Spanish-speaking users of many public library catalogs.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">But if that is indeed the case, using “i.e.” instead of “that is” is an extremely tiny concession to the putative needs of that base—if we were in fact concerned about that we’d have to translate all the other
English parts of the record, which are many, into some international language, Esperanto perhaps, or Latin. Surely if the non-English speakers using our records can manage to read through our extensive notes written in English they won’t stumble at “that is”.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Note: the question isn’t whether “i.e.” is better or worse than “that is”; the question is whether there’s a good rare materials reason for DCRM to depart from the general instructions. On this issue I don’t
see one.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Lapka, Francis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 3, 2018 10:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D">I’m pleased to see all the useful input.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D">On the matter of “i.e.” and “sic”: Would it be fair to say that the users for a given record describing a rare item are likely to be more linguistically diverse, compared to the
audiences for other resources described with RDA? If so, is that a sufficient rare materials reason for deviation – assuming “i.e.” is easier to understand than “that is” for the non-English audience ? The same linguistic neutrality might be evoked to justify
the use of square brackets instead of “unnumbered.” If the premise is malarkey, the case for “i.e.” in this context is wobbly.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D">Francis</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" id="LPlnk837862" previewremoved="true">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathie Coblentz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 03, 2018 12:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" id="LPlnk189560" previewremoved="true">
dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">I completely agree with Bob Maxwell on "i.e.," and I have no problems using "that is" instead. (It never ceases to surprise me how many educated people use "i.e." when they mean "e.g.," and vice versa. Or "the other way around," I suppose
I should say.)</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">However, "sic" is awfully hard to replace with an English word or concise phrase. Of course RDA gospel calls for omitting it altogether in transcribing "an element as it appears on the source," and I can go along with that, as long as
there is a note (and/or other title entry) "correcting the inaccuracy," though in the case of rare materials, I would not limit that to "if considered important for identification or access." </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">But in quoted material from other sources, there is no other good way to call attention to typos, factual errors or other unexpected variations in the data. </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">This doesn't really apply to the discussion of Extent of text, since I can't imagine using "sic" there for any reason, but it might be worth reflecting on for the rest of the catalog record.</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Oh, and for what it's worth: for rare materials, I'm completely on board with using the square brackets convention instead of "unnumbered," for the sake of everyone's sanity. I wish RDA would drop "unnumbered" altogether. Anyone who cares
about the distinction between pages with page numbers on them and pages with no page numbers on them, understands the bracketing convention. As for the rest, how many noncatalogers even know what "unnumbered pages" means?</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------------</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Kathie Coblentz |
<span style="color:#CC0000">The New York Public Library</span></span></b></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Rare Materials Cataloger</span></i></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.5pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Special Collections/Special Formats Processing</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Stephen A. Schwarzman Building<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">476 5th Avenue, Room 313, New York, NY 10018</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:kathiecoblentz@nypl.org" target="_blank" id="LPlnk158752" previewremoved="true"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif; color:#1155CC">kathiecoblentz@nypl.org</span></a></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">My opinions, not NYPL's</p>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu" id="LPlnk15693" previewremoved="true">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>><br>
To: "DCRM Users' Group" <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" id="LPlnk437494" previewremoved="true">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:05:50 +0000<br>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#1F497D">I can just about accept the argument that there is a rare reason for departing from RDA extent instructions in the matter of bracketing vs. “unnumbered”—rare book extent statements are much more likely
than other types of extent statements to need to record unnumbered sequences. </span>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#1F497D">However, I do not accept the argument that rare extent statements should continue to use “i.e.” and “sic” when the rest of RDA practice does not. In the first place, if 0.4.3.7 justified this it would
have justified it for RDA as a whole—the rare materials community is not the only one that “commonly used” these forms,
<i>all</i> communities commonly used these forms before RDA came along and this was not thought to be a good reason to refuse to go along with the new instruction. So that argument simply won’t wash, for me at least. There is no compelling rare materials reason
in those cases why the rare rules should depart from the general RDA rules.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
<a href="tel:(801)%20422-5568" target="_blank" id="LPlnk630919" previewremoved="true">(801)422-5568</a></span></p>
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