<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Georgia;
panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Bookman Old Style";
panose-1:2 5 6 4 5 5 5 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Trebuchet MS";
panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Nauvoo;
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.gmail-gr
{mso-style-name:gmail-gr_;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I just want to quickly point out, as someone who appreciates seeing [sic] (& knowing what it means) not only in bib records but also in numerous other places
in my personal research, that “sic” can be found in most if not all English dictionaries. It has definitely entered English language usage, even though it originated as Latin. Perhaps someone has already pointed this out, and if so, I want to reiterate that
the argument to stop using [sic] because it is Latin is shaky.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">Valerie M. Buck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">Rare Literature Cataloger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">Harold B. Lee Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">Brigham Young University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">6742 HBLL<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">Provo, Utah 84602<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D">801-422-4477<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nauvoo",serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:valerie_buck@byu.edu">valerie_buck@byu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kalan Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 04, 2018 8:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">To return to the matter of abbreviations, perhaps online translation tools have supplanted the purposes of international
languages, such as Latin, in our day-to-day. An international scholar looking for a resource in my institution's discovery tool clicks the “translate page?” button in their web browser. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">Take the following extent statement an English language of cataloging (040 $b) <span class="gmail-gr">dcrmb</span> record:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">[14], 240 (i.e. 220), 64, [28] p. ; ǂc 21 cm. (4to)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">the web browser translates:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">[14], 240 (<span class="gmail-gr">tj</span>. 220), 64, [28] str. ; 21 cm. (4to)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">I gather that “<span class="gmail-gr">tj</span>” is a lexical equivalent to “i.e.” and that the online translation tool knows this. Replace the “i.e.” with the phrase “that is”
and the results are the same (curiously, it reverts the phrase “that is” back to the abbreviation “<span class="gmail-gr">tj</span>”). For these online translation tools to work in the best capacity, consistency is key which leaves me to think that a departure
from the general RDA rules might be detrimental in the long term. However, one might make the case that a reliance on online translation tools might be detrimental in the long term as well. ;) It is interesting to note that the same online translation tool
doesn’t know how to make heads or tails of the abbreviation “sic”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">As much as I like the use of brackets for unnumbered pages (and personally, dislike having to type those words so often in RDA). I wonder how screen readers react to the brackets.
I’m not an expert by any means in web accessibility, this is more of a personal curiosity than anything and I do prefer the brackets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">kalan <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:11.75pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222">p.s. After many years a list-lurker, this is my first post to DCRM-list. My hope <span class="gmail-gr">it</span> was well conveyed and constructed. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Person, Mary <<a href="mailto:person@law.harvard.edu" target="_blank">person@law.harvard.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">I agree with Richard on this. When looking at a catalog record and encountering something that
could either be a catalogers’ typo OR a faithful transcription of a title page (or whatever) that question (“Really?”) does come immediately to mind and it’s so helpful to have [sic] right there and not buried in a note, which may not even be noticed.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">As for “i.e.” I’m one who uses it in every day conversation so am probably hopelessly mired there.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">Mary</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">Mary Person</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">Rare Books Cataloger/Reference Librarian</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">Historical & Special Collections</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79">Harvard Law School Library</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79"><a href="mailto:person@law.harvard.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:#00007F">person@law.harvard.edu</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:#1F4E79"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 04, 2018 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I quite agree with William Hale on this one. Interpolated "[sic]" is an immediate answer to the question "Really? Is this not a transcription
error?"--a question that is either left unanswered, raising real questions about discrepancies among copies, or answered only in a note that must be found by inspection of the record. It is equivalent to "[thus]", but that is not an established convention,
and thus not as immediately informative. There's also "[!]"--but that seems unduly judgemental.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I suppose "i.e." is a lost cause, despite the fact that just about everyone likely to be interested in a rare book record will be accustomed
to it; I still feel a twinge of reader's whiplash in response to "[that is ...]", as if the statement were being read aloud to me: it gets in the way of comprehending the statement as a whole. (Then again, I'm a cataloger, so I talk to myself constantly...).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">And yes, the extent statement
<i>must</i> admit editorial intervention to convey correct information, which can always be supported by an explanatory note, or even a formal collational formula/pagination statement that exhibits some analytical understanding of the physical book.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__own.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=EkkQFOGUCtF2osSJj7hvtyM31K6sxQSo34Z9RQpCmDw&m=lkD4cSrM8biUZ_9N6CcLjV6L6kYujytS4sRWAfyGb_8&s=DOsN_0FQHynMydZpJtWx_leN5eejojvKBbXuWMwRPd8&e=" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 5:35 AM, William Hale <<a href="mailto:wah26@cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">wah26@cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">I don’t think I have ever used [sic] in an extent statement, though I do employ it occasionally in transcribed fields. I use [i.e.] fairly
often when printed pagination is incorrect, as it often is in early materials. Not to use it or an equivalent in such cases means that the extent statement will not represent the actual extent of the item, which is highly misleading. You can of course put
the actual extent in a note, but where does that leave the “granularity of RDA”? And it is making key information about the item less easy to find, which is the last thing we should be doing.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">William Hale.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.lib.cam.ac.uk_deptserv_rarebooks_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=EkkQFOGUCtF2osSJj7hvtyM31K6sxQSo34Z9RQpCmDw&m=lkD4cSrM8biUZ_9N6CcLjV6L6kYujytS4sRWAfyGb_8&s=GLfwz6epBFLkIFOlib8w_2E-IYxlXvdWcO_7IjRR9vM&e=" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">Rare
Books and Early Manuscripts Department,<br>
Cambridge University Library,<br>
West Road, Cambridge, CB3 9DR.</span></a><br>
<br>
Telephone: <a href="tel:+44%201223%20333122" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">(+44) (0)1223 333122</span></a><br>
Email: <a href="mailto:William.Hale@lib.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">William.Hale@lib.cam.ac.uk</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Maxwell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2018 00:25<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Actually, I think the RDA solution is not to use “sic” at all or any equivalent, just to copy exactly what is there with no “on the spot” explanation
and then explaining later in a note, if thought necessary. I’m not sure now often “sic” would be used in an extent statement—maybe if the numeral being recorded is known to be incorrect?—but I think RDA’s solution would be to record what’s there and explain
in a note if necessary. Which seems like a pretty “rare materials cataloging” way of doing things, to represent the item exactly as it represents itself.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Margaret F. Nichols<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 3, 2018 3:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’m a bit skeptical of the idea that an abbreviation of a Latin phrase is going to be easier for non-English users to understand than an English phrase
is, given that the lingua franca these days tends to be English rather than Latin. I do agree, though, that it’s hard to come up with a concise English equivalent for “sic.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Two cents,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Margaret</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">_______________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Margaret F. Nichols</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Rare Materials Cataloging Coordinator</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">2B Kroch Library</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cornell University
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ithaca, NY 14853-5302</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tel. (607) 255-9667
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapka, Francis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 03, 2018 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">I’m pleased to see all the useful input.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">On the matter of “i.e.” and “sic”: Would it be fair to say that the users for a given record describing a rare item are likely
to be more linguistically diverse, compared to the audiences for other resources described with RDA? If so, is that a sufficient rare materials reason for deviation – assuming “i.e.” is easier to understand than “that is” for the non-English audience ? The
same linguistic neutrality might be evoked to justify the use of square brackets instead of “unnumbered.” If the premise is malarkey, the case for “i.e.” in this context is wobbly.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">Francis</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathie Coblentz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 03, 2018 12:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I completely agree with Bob Maxwell on "i.e.," and I have no problems using "that is" instead. (It never ceases to surprise me how many educated people use "i.e." when they mean
"e.g.," and vice versa. Or "the other way around," I suppose I should say.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">However, "sic" is awfully hard to replace with an English word or concise phrase. Of course RDA gospel calls for omitting it altogether in transcribing "an element as it appears
on the source," and I can go along with that, as long as there is a note (and/or other title entry) "correcting the inaccuracy," though in the case of rare materials, I would not limit that to "if considered important for identification or access." <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">But in quoted material from other sources, there is no other good way to call attention to typos, factual errors or other unexpected variations in the data. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This doesn't really apply to the discussion of Extent of text, since I can't imagine using "sic" there for any reason, but it might be worth reflecting on for the rest of the catalog
record.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Oh, and for what it's worth: for rare materials, I'm completely on board with using the square brackets convention instead of "unnumbered," for the sake of everyone's sanity. I
wish RDA would drop "unnumbered" altogether. Anyone who cares about the distinction between pages with page numbers on them and pages with no page numbers on them, understands the bracketing convention. As for the rest, how many noncatalogers even know what
"unnumbered pages" means?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Kathie Coblentz |
<span style="color:#CC0000">The New York Public Library</span></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Rare Materials Cataloger</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Special Collections/Special Formats Processing</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Stephen A. Schwarzman Building<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D476-2B5th-2BAvenue-2C-2BRoom-2B313-2C-2BNew-2BYork-2C-2BNY-2B10018-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=EkkQFOGUCtF2osSJj7hvtyM31K6sxQSo34Z9RQpCmDw&m=lkD4cSrM8biUZ_9N6CcLjV6L6kYujytS4sRWAfyGb_8&s=nOmpcwg3Heecmlja3OjPBKpSncqkX174Clge38F_5I8&e=" target="_blank">476
5th Avenue, Room 313, New York, NY 10018</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="mailto:kathiecoblentz@nypl.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1155CC">kathiecoblentz@nypl.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">My opinions, not NYPL's<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu" target="_blank">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>><br>
To: "DCRM Users' Group" <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:05:50 +0000<br>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I can just about accept the argument that there is a rare reason for departing from RDA extent instructions in the matter of bracketing vs. “unnumbered”—rare
book extent statements are much more likely than other types of extent statements to need to record unnumbered sequences.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">However, I do not accept the argument that rare extent statements should continue to use “i.e.” and “sic” when the rest of RDA practice does not. In
the first place, if 0.4.3.7 justified this it would have justified it for RDA as a whole—the rare materials community is not the only one that “commonly used” these forms,
<i>all</i> communities commonly used these forms before RDA came along and this was not thought to be a good reason to refuse to go along with the new instruction. So that argument simply won’t wash, for me at least. There is no compelling rare materials reason
in those cases why the rare rules should depart from the general RDA rules.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
<a href="tel:(801)%20422-5568" target="_blank">(801)422-5568</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><br>
Kalan Knudson Davis, MLIS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Data Management & Access (DMA)<br>
University of Minnesota Libraries </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">160 Wilson Library
</span>(612) 301-9521<span style="color:#888888"> PH (note new number)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">309 19th Ave. S. </span>(218) 779-9009 <span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#888888">Cell</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#888888">Minneapolis, MN 55455 </span><a href="mailto:kkdavis@umn.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">kkdavis@umn.edu</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>