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<p class="MsoNormal">Setting aside the question of [i.e.] and [sic] for the moment, and returning to the original conversation about using square brackets, I just want to put in my vote for retaining the brackets. If we take a relatively straightforward statement
of extent, such as:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">vi, [3], 10-311, [1] pages<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">and replace the brackets with “unnumbered pages,” we end up with the more unwieldly:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">vi pages, 3 unnumbered pages, 10-311 pages, 1 unnumbered page<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As statements of extent for rare materials can (and do) get significantly more complicated than that, I think we would quickly enter into a realm where using “unnumbered pages” instead of square brackets would lead to more confusion and
obfuscation than clarity. Given the nature of our work, it seems to me that the concision and economy of display that square brackets give us is useful to keep.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brenna<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brenna Bychowski<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Catalog/Metadata Librarian<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yale University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">203.432.4850<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">brenna.bychowski@yale.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>William Hale<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 4, 2018 5:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">I don’t think I have ever used [sic] in an extent statement, though I do employ it occasionally in transcribed fields. I use [i.e.] fairly often when printed pagination is incorrect, as it often
is in early materials. Not to use it or an equivalent in such cases means that the extent statement will not represent the actual extent of the item, which is highly misleading. You can of course put the actual extent in a note, but where does that leave the
“granularity of RDA”? And it is making key information about the item less easy to find, which is the last thing we should be doing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">William Hale.<br>
<br>
</span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.lib.cam.ac.uk_deptserv_rarebooks_index.html&d=DwMFAg&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=ic4fFhrKj_tnOO1LhvD85wkHXq5V8Ndks3a0JI9pZlc&m=3PdripfKq3B6nwBxYQXt39XD4uOX3qETYFUuBh9xfoU&s=MZ4c5xb5Z8y4YFDui2pV9noyo44R0Ry9i-kFtnQb41E&e=" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">Rare
Books and Early Manuscripts Department,<br>
Cambridge University Library,<br>
West Road, Cambridge, CB3 9DR.</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
<br>
Telephone: </span><a href="tel:+44%201223%20333122" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">(+44) (0)1223 333122</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
Email: </span><a href="mailto:William.Hale@lib.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">William.Hale@lib.cam.ac.uk</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Maxwell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2018 00:25<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Actually, I think the RDA solution is not to use “sic” at all or any equivalent, just to copy exactly what is there with no “on the spot” explanation and then explaining later in a note, if thought necessary.
I’m not sure now often “sic” would be used in an extent statement—maybe if the numeral being recorded is known to be incorrect?—but I think RDA’s solution would be to record what’s there and explain in a note if necessary. Which seems like a pretty “rare materials
cataloging” way of doing things, to represent the item exactly as it represents itself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Margaret F. Nichols<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 3, 2018 3:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’m a bit skeptical of the idea that an abbreviation of a Latin phrase is going to be easier for non-English users to understand than an English phrase is, given that the lingua franca these days tends to be
English rather than Latin. I do agree, though, that it’s hard to come up with a concise English equivalent for “sic.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Two cents,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Margaret<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">_______________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Margaret F. Nichols<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Rare Materials Cataloging Coordinator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">2B Kroch Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cornell University <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ithaca, NY 14853-5302<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tel. (607) 255-9667 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapka, Francis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 03, 2018 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">I’m pleased to see all the useful input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">On the matter of “i.e.” and “sic”: Would it be fair to say that the users for a given record describing a rare item are likely to be more linguistically diverse, compared to the audiences
for other resources described with RDA? If so, is that a sufficient rare materials reason for deviation – assuming “i.e.” is easier to understand than “that is” for the non-English audience ? The same linguistic neutrality might be evoked to justify the use
of square brackets instead of “unnumbered.” If the premise is malarkey, the case for “i.e.” in this context is wobbly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">Francis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L [<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathie Coblentz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 03, 2018 12:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I completely agree with Bob Maxwell on "i.e.," and I have no problems using "that is" instead. (It never ceases to surprise me how many educated people use "i.e." when they mean "e.g.," and vice versa. Or "the other way around," I suppose
I should say.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, "sic" is awfully hard to replace with an English word or concise phrase. Of course RDA gospel calls for omitting it altogether in transcribing "an element as it appears on the source," and I can go along with that, as long as there
is a note (and/or other title entry) "correcting the inaccuracy," though in the case of rare materials, I would not limit that to "if considered important for identification or access." <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But in quoted material from other sources, there is no other good way to call attention to typos, factual errors or other unexpected variations in the data. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This doesn't really apply to the discussion of Extent of text, since I can't imagine using "sic" there for any reason, but it might be worth reflecting on for the rest of the catalog record.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Oh, and for what it's worth: for rare materials, I'm completely on board with using the square brackets convention instead of "unnumbered," for the sake of everyone's sanity. I wish RDA would drop "unnumbered" altogether. Anyone who cares
about the distinction between pages with page numbers on them and pages with no page numbers on them, understands the bracketing convention. As for the rest, how many noncatalogers even know what "unnumbered pages" means?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Kathie Coblentz |
<span style="color:#CC0000">The New York Public Library</span></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Rare Materials Cataloger</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Special Collections/Special Formats Processing</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Stephen A. Schwarzman Building<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">476 5th Avenue, Room 313, New York, NY 10018</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:kathiecoblentz@nypl.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1155CC">kathiecoblentz@nypl.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My opinions, not NYPL's<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>><br>
To: "DCRM Users' Group" <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:05:50 +0000<br>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] RBMS PS review Q4: Extent of text<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I can just about accept the argument that there is a rare reason for departing from RDA extent instructions in the matter of bracketing vs. “unnumbered”—rare
book extent statements are much more likely than other types of extent statements to need to record unnumbered sequences.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">However, I do not accept the argument that rare extent statements should continue to use “i.e.” and “sic” when the rest of RDA practice does not. In
the first place, if 0.4.3.7 justified this it would have justified it for RDA as a whole—the rare materials community is not the only one that “commonly used” these forms,
<i>all</i> communities commonly used these forms before RDA came along and this was not thought to be a good reason to refuse to go along with the new instruction. So that argument simply won’t wash, for me at least. There is no compelling rare materials reason
in those cases why the rare rules should depart from the general RDA rules.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
</span><a href="tel:(801)%20422-5568" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">(801)422-5568</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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