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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Sorry I am late to the discussion, but I would like to make a few comments on this thread. I was involved with the creation of AMREMM and acted as an informal representative to BSC when it was being written and adopted.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Deborah's comments are to the point and excellent. At this point, I would think that Matt's first and second points might be combined. Thank you both.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Gregory Pass is the author of AMREMM and should be contacted during any revision process. I have added his e-mail (gregory.pass@slu.edu) to my reply. He should also be able to point to people who use AMREMM and have
the expertise to comment on some of the suggested changes. On the other hand, the manual was adopted by BSC and was passed by CC:DA.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">AMREMM was originally placed outside the DCRM suite. If DCRM will no longer have an independent existence after the rare materials cataloging desiderata are incorporated into RDA via the BSR and PS (If I have things
straight), the question is whether AMREMM should be shoehorned into an inhospitable environment. The essential difficulty is that RDA and ISBD and library cataloging in general is not designed for the description of unique items. Take the publication, etc.
info. MSS are produced, and the mss covered by AMREMM rarely have a specific date or place of production on the item itself. For the most part, scholars have to be satisfied with expert judgment about the script and the codicology. Frequently, one counts
oneself lucky if the approximate portion of a century or the approximate portion of a country can be identified, e.g. beginning of the 9th century in southern England. <br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">On the other hand, I doubt that putting things into different MARC fields will be a problem, particularly since AMREMM was designed to support MARC cataloging. MARC has always been a moving target, so to speak. Similarly,
there should be no question about the use of RDA in determining or formulating access points. Definitions of some fields may be a problem if they do not allow for manuscripts.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I do not think that mss from all periods should be put together. I don't want to go into detail, but there are different needs and conventions in the way users (mostly scholars) describe and therefore find these items.
BSC already has a manuscripts module for modern materials, and I believe that it was not designed to cover the material in AMREMM. The fact that the majority of medieval mss are compilations of multiple works only adds to the problem.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I am running out of mental energy and have to be somewhere else, so I will stop here. I hope my musings are of some help.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Best,<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Larry<br>
</p>
<div id="Signature">
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<p>Laurence S. Creider<br>
</p>
<p>Professor Emeritus</p>
<p>Archives and Special Collections</p>
<p align="left">New Mexico State University Library</p>
<p>P.O. Box 30006</p>
<p>Las Cruces, NM 88003-8006</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>lcreider@nmsu.edu <br>
</p>
<br>
</div>
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<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu> on behalf of Erin Blake <erin.blake.folger@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 24, 2018 7:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] AMREMM and RDA</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Except for expanding abbreviations, those examples are all already okay with MARC and DCRM, so I don't think you have too much to worry about. Separately bracketing elements was an ISBD change that was explicitly brought into the DCRM suite with
DCRM(G), for example.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Erin.</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><a id="LPlnk138220" previewremoved="true"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><font color="#000000">----------------<br>
Erin C. Blake, Ph.D. | Head of Collection Information Services | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 | eblake@folger.edu | office tel. +1 202-675-0323 | fax +1 202-675-0328 | www.folger.edu</font></span></a></p>
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<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 6:39 PM Matthew C. Haugen <<a href="mailto:matthew.haugen@columbia.edu" id="LPlnk481451" previewremoved="true">matthew.haugen@columbia.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Here is a follow-up question in the meantime; although a record (it seems) cannot be explicitly dual-coded as 040 $e amremm $e rda, I expect that access points would generally now be RDA-compliant; are there any arguments in favor or against allowing
other RDA-flavored hybrid practices into $e amremm records not explicitly accounted for in the AMREMM manual?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example: using 264_0 instead of 260; adding 33x fields; 563 instead of 500 for Binding descriptions; bracketing supplied data in adjacent subfields separately rather than inclusively; expanding abbreviations? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your input,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Matt</div>
</div>
<div class="x_gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Deborah J. Leslie <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk755596" previewremoved="true">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">With a 2003 publication, AMREMM* would be ready for revision, even without the need to reconsider its principles and provisions in light of RDA. A couple of
points of interest that put it conceptually outside the DCRM suite:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">Although published by the BSC through our parent body ACRL, it has a personal author, Gregory Pass. He consulted widely with the BSC and other groups, and
generally (if not always) accommodated our suggestions, but at the end of the day, he is the author.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">Gregory's remit was to align scholarly conventions used in describing medieval manuscripts with library descriptive conventions based on AACR2. One of the
main deviations in practice is that of main entry. 1.1B6, for example, gives main entries in examples of devising titles, and it is clear that the manuscript as a physical object is the source of main entry.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">[Books of hours : use of Rouen]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">Main entry under</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">: Catholic Church<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">Uniform title</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">: Book of hours (Ms.
National Art Library. MSL/1902/1654)<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">Added entry under</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">: National Art
Library (Great Britain). Manuscript. MSL/1902/1654</span></i><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">It's sensible that manuscripts of all time periods should be considered together. It will be interesting to see what comes of it.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d">*I can't resist bringing up a quip I made at the time, which I thought was funny but not sure anyone else did. Since the title is
<u>De</u>scriptive <u>C</u>ataloging of <u>A</u>ncient, <u>M</u>edieval, <u>R</u>enaissance, and
<u>E</u>arly <u>M</u>odern <u>M</u>anuscripts, we missed the chance of acronyming it DECAMREMM.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#5f497a">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library |
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk253047" previewremoved="true">
djleslie@folger.edu</a> |<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> DCRM-L [mailto:<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk25431" previewremoved="true">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapka, Francis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 07 September, 2017 08:20</span></p>
<div>
<div class="x_m_3925150456565524077h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] AMREMM and RDA<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="x_m_3925150456565524077h5">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div id="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Thank you Matt for providing a good summary of where things stand. To this I'll add that BSR guidelines for manuscripts are in development. A draft will be shared with this list soon.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">In 2018, I expect that the RBMS Bibliographic Standards Committee will initiate additional activity concerning manuscripts and RDA. At that time, we'll consider options such as those that Matt
has described.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><br>
Francis <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#212121">Francis Lapka · Catalog Librarian</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#212121">Dept. of Rare Books and Manuscripts</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#212121">Yale Center for British Art</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#212121"><a href="tel:(203)%20432-9672" value="+12034329672" target="_blank" id="LPlnk592960" previewremoved="true">203.432.9672</a> · </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"; color:#212121"><a href="mailto:francis.lapka@yale.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk929145" previewremoved="true"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">francis.lapka@yale.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"; color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div class="x_MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">
<hr size="3" width="98%" align="center">
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<div id="x_m_3925150456565524077m_-387940303479737200divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk843471" previewremoved="true">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Matthew C. Haugen <<a href="mailto:matthew.haugen@columbia.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk306540" previewremoved="true">matthew.haugen@columbia.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 6, 2017 4:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] AMREMM and RDA</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">HI Ryan,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">I'm not aware of any information on creating RDA-compliant AMREMM records.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">The BIBCO and CONSER standard record profiles contain provisions for creating RDA-compliant DCRM records for all of the AACR2-based DCRM manuals, except for DCRM (MSS), though
I believe that update is pending.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">And the DCRM Task Force had postponed work on manuscript materials of all time periods when drafting the RBMS Policy Statements for RDA-based rare materials instructions, so
that work remains to be done for modern manuscripts as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">I wonder if any of these options might be feasible or desirable for BSC to pursue?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">1. Publish an RDA-compliant revision to AMREMM as a standalone manual, like the original.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">2. Draft additional RBMS Policy Statements for these materials, that when published along with the rest of RBMS-PS, would supersede AMREMM. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">3. Submit provisions to be added to the BSR profile for creating RDA-compliant records using AMREMM as it currently stands, similar to the current arrangement with the other
DCRM manuals. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">4. Publish its own similar application profile for creating RDA-compliant records using AMREMM as it currently stands, without going through LC/PCC.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Matt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:28 PM, Ryan Hildebrand <<a href="mailto:rhilde@uoregon.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk759569" previewremoved="true">rhilde@uoregon.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Can anyone point me to helpful information on creating RDA compliant AMREMM records? I don’t have specific questions at the moment, but would like to understand issues others may have already tackled.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Ryan Hildebrand<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Authorities & Special Collections Cataloging Librarian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">University of Oregon Libraries<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">1299 University of Oregon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Eugene OR 97403-1299<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="tel:(541)%20346-1844" target="_blank" id="LPlnk180337" previewremoved="true">(541) 346-1844</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<pre><span style="color:black">-- <br>Matthew C. Haugen<br>Rare Book Cataloger<br>102 Butler Library<br>Columbia University Libraries<br>E-mail: <a href="mailto:matthew.haugen@columbia.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk686453" previewremoved="true">matthew.haugen@columbia.edu</a><br>Phone: <a href="tel:(212)%20851-2451" value="+12128512451" target="_blank" id="LPlnk605867" previewremoved="true">212-851-2451</a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
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<pre cols="72">-- <br>Matthew C. Haugen<br>Rare Book Cataloger<br>102 Butler Library<br>Columbia University Libraries<br>E-mail: <a href="mailto:matthew.haugen@columbia.edu" target="_blank" id="LPlnk815820" previewremoved="true">matthew.haugen@columbia.edu</a><br>Phone: <a href="tel:(212)%20851-2451" value="+12128512451" target="_blank" id="LPlnk761501" previewremoved="true">212-851-2451</a></pre>
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