<div dir="ltr">I double-checked Bibliographic Formats and Standards and found that the 340 |m does, indeed, contain printing format. Even so, with this confusion between format and height floating around, we'll need to be extra vigilant to make sure format does end up in the 340 |m and size, as Christine points out, in the 852 |k where it belongs.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:02 PM Christine DeZelar-Tiedman <<a href="mailto:dezel002@umn.edu">dezel002@umn.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Yes. Size designators should be in 852 $k, NOT 340</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:45 PM Moody, Honor M. <<a href="mailto:honor_moody@harvard.edu" target="_blank">honor_moody@harvard.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_7462387316341922455gmail-m_1520542157231711088WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">I saw one of those 340s (presumably added in batch) earlier today, and was not pleased. I know Jackie Dooley was on this list before her retirement, does anyone know if
there is an OCLC employee currently subscribed and/or monitoring the list? I think this is worth raising with them (and requesting a deletion in the vast majority of cases).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Honor<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Mark Seidl<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2019 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I just want to second Richard's comment and offer my own institution, Vassar, as an example. In Special Collections, we shelve books by three sizes: folio, quarto, and octavo. These denote height and have only a coincidental relationship
to the printing format of the books. Further, these distinctions don't appear in our records, except for "Folio" which leads the call numbers for books of that size.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If I understand correctly Richard's remarks about the RDA 340 field, I'm bothered by the possibility of this size information ending up in records where it could be mistaken for printing format designations, which traditionally appear in
the 300.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mark Seidl<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Noble, Richard <<a href="mailto:richard_noble@brown.edu" target="_blank">richard_noble@brown.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Georgia,serif">Format = Spine height is not just in recon records. There seems to be a recently initiated program (centered I know not where) of wholesale insertion into OCLC records of 340 rda
"format" fields, which are clearly a reversion to this ancient and (for rare catalogers) potentially highly misleading descriptive practice. It would seem to be a device for assigning shelving locations, which are in many places given as 12mo, 8vo , 4to, folio.
This has nothing to do with the printing format, especially with respect to modern books which may really be e.g. 32mo in 8s or some such thing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__own.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=y9JYRk2qYT9ckksxuN1YvLlmI0e5kQb0Azya02E2fFg&e=" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:00 PM Moody, Honor M. <<a href="mailto:honor_moody@harvard.edu" target="_blank">honor_moody@harvard.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">It’s not uncommon to see a bibliographic format meaning spine height in recon records in OCLC. If the only/primary
difference between the OCLC description and the piece in hand is a difference in bibliographic format, and no height is given in cm, I’ve found it worthwhile to check the public catalog of the creating library (in case they updated locally), or to contact
the library to confirm.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Honor</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erin Blake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Something else to keep in mind is that the words used for bibliographic format can also be used for spine height. One of my prized possessions is an "old style" librarian's ruler
that shows centimeters on the left edge and spine high terms on the right. See the "Same words, different meanings" section of the Folgerpedia article "Bibliographic format" for my attempted explanation:
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__folgerpedia.folger.edu_Bibliographic-5Fformat&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=D27RVllZjipF8kQnzyyb5LtZi6Fg6J4wpc_oLfyMcjU&e=" target="_blank">
https://folgerpedia.folger.edu/Bibliographic_format</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">See attached for a photo of my beloved ruler!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Erin.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">----------------<br>
Erin Blake, PhD (she/her) | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 |
<a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank">eblake@folger.edu</a> | <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.folger.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=5o9CMJ09HVQhFIUX_Bf8kJyF-27r671ffCyztB6pMi8&e=" target="_blank">
www.folger.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:54 AM Mark Seidl <<a href="mailto:marseidl@vassar.edu" target="_blank">marseidl@vassar.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear June,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Worry not--yours is absolutely and appropriate question!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In my experience, dealers' catalogs/descriptions can be useful but also misleading. Some are excellent, others hastily thrown together. In any case, we catalogers need to treat
dealer's descriptions with healthy skepticism. I always compare dealers' descriptions with my own collations, going with my own when I'm confident the dealer made a mistake. In short, always verify.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">As for your question about the OCLC record for a copy that resembles yours, I and, I think, others who post here would need to know a bit more about the copy you have.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hope this helps some.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">All best,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mark Seidl<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM Rutkowski, June <<a href="mailto:rutkowsk@fas.harvard.edu" target="_blank">rutkowsk@fas.harvard.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am fresh off of Deborah J. Leslie’s Rare Book Cataloging course at the Rare Book School, and I have my first rare book sitting in front of me. It’s a French book from 1679.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One question I have is about determining format. The book dealer says it’s a 24mo. The gatherings have 6 leaves each, the chain lines are horizontal, and the height is 13 cm.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">According to my chart a 24mo with horizontal chain lines cannot have 6 leaves. I’m thinking it’s a 12mo.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is a dcrmb record in OCLC for a 12mo copy that is very similar to mine (signatures and number of preliminary pages are different). 973455836.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, my questions are: how much weight does a cataloger give to a dealer’s description? And, is the information I’ve provided here (gatherings of 6 leaves, horizontal chain lines,
height 13 cm) enough evidence to determine that my book is a 12mo?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If this is an inappropriate question please be gentle with me. I’m an old cataloger, but a spanking new rare-book cataloger, eager to participate in this community.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">June Rutkowski<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cataloger<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Harvard Library Information and Technical Services<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cambridge, MA 02139<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mark Seidl<br>
Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger<br>
Vassar College Libraries<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=COXzqK57kq0fL4kYieI6A0FmfDaxHgOkBNQWB_Xzj7o&e=" target="_blank">http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/</a><br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=azrk0oLO2EM_LEwBA2MLxwToWdUWB08cFnuz_bGaqZM&e=" target="_blank">Gargoyle
Bulletin</a> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=b0RB8EsBJC8LZF3EC_hvPRGNqzFJTDCYIuHHuS9xSpA&e=" target="_blank">
http://pages.vassar.edu/library/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mark Seidl<br>
Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger<br>
Vassar College Libraries<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=wjrlX5VwK2IxhVCA4zVdoZwHYXqARVrXdxKZAAho9B8&e=" target="_blank">http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/</a><br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=syI8S9Kt2k3XeoeKmr8DAjDcXH6JEPBvPBcd3YD19JQ&e=" target="_blank">Gargoyle
Bulletin</a> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=f3RpgsgQD-4fHw0E43WjnsklOdAXL-MFn6noPPIKOYg&e=" target="_blank">
http://pages.vassar.edu/library/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_7462387316341922455gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Christine DeZelar-Tiedman </div><div>Metadata and Emerging Technologies Librarian<br>University of Minnesota Libraries <br>160 Wilson Library <br>309 19th Ave. S. <br>Minneapolis, MN 55455</div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">(612) 625-0381 </span> </div><div><a href="mailto:dezel002@umn.edu" target="_blank">dezel002@umn.edu</a></div><div><br></div><div>pronouns: she/her/hers</div><div><br><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Mark Seidl<br>Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger<br>Vassar College Libraries<br><a href="http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/" target="_blank">http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/</a><br><a href="http://pages.vassar.edu/library" target="_blank">Gargoyle Bulletin</a> <a href="http://pages.vassar.edu/library/" target="_blank">http://pages.vassar.edu/library/</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>