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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">An interesting discussion!
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Looking at the Printing & Pub terms now, I see there’s no gloss for either term. (I know those are generally in progress so my point is not to find a fault,
where none exists, but to point out a lack of guidance in for catalogers puzzling over these terms (as are a lot of us on this thread!) What’s a poor, harried, overworked cataloger to do? I’ll leave that question to wiser heads…
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The distinction between “false” and “fictitious” really does seem to lead down the rabbit hole… What’s “fictitious” and what’s “false?” Pooh Corner seems “fictitious”
to me (I think), because no bibliographer (or adult reader) would think that’s a real place—would they? Perhaps same thing, in this context, with Phila and Ephesus? Would a book-buyer actually think the book was created in Ephesus? So, I’d vote with “fictitious,”
as I would with Utopia Wonderland, Narnia, etc. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I know Ephesus is a real place, but it’s a fabled one, like Byzantium or Constantinople, which some have claimed as places for their books or writings to (falsely?)
claim authority or lend credence or authority to their publication or writing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But suppose the imprint says, “House of Children” or something like that? That *could* be *either* a nudge-nudge inside joke, or an attempt to disguise actual
publication. For a pirated edition maybe? (e.g a “London” imprint actually issued in Dublin). How can a cataloger know, without a side-career doing research? Help!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">OK, I made up “House of Children” above, but what about the following imprints from actual Cotsen Library books:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Printed for Tabart and Co.
<u>at the Juvenile and School Library</u>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Se vend chez Tabart et Co.,
<u>a la Biblioteque d'Education”</u><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Sold by … and
<u>all other booksellers in Great Britain and Ireland</u>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Juvenile and School Library” … ,”la Biblioteque d'Education,” “… all other booksellers in Great Britain and Ireland”? How do we know if the first two are
real places or production sites or not? And is the claim of “all other booksellers” at all valid, or just puffery? (Maybe there are no other, or maybe just one or two other booksellers. It’s hard to say.) Yes, I know I’m talking about imprints, not places
per se, immediately above, but I guess my broad question is are the places where these booksellers, printers, etc., claim to be sited on the TP, colophon, pub. advert., actual places or not?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I guess we need to think about and define terms like “fictitious” or “false”? Maybe the distinction is somehow essentially about whether or not the intent
(however we can get at that question) is to deceive, mislead, or confuse? Pooh Corner doesn’t seem to deceive. Nor I think does Ephesus?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But on the other hand, as someone already pointed out, in Reformation Europe a printer or bookseller might well want to murky the waters intentionally. So
a “Catholic” catechism or book printed in a Catholic country might specify location as “England,” or some Protestant country/city? Or one printed and sold in England cite a foreign location and to also deliberately muddle printer / bookseller, location, etc…
to avoid Walsingham’s boys paying a visit. And vice versa for Protestant catechism or books printed and distributed in a Catholic country for distribution there? Thus, a “false” imprints and locations?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Not sure if it would be false or fictitious if someone cited “Eden,” or the “Garden of Paradise” as places or “Sons of Adam” or “Daughters of Eve” as responsible
parties? But I’ll leave that question to others…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">An interesting thread, this. Sorry to have gone on for so long in my interest!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jeff B<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jeff Barton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cotsen Children’s Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rare Books & Special Collections<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Princeton University Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">jpbarton@princeton.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Deborah J. Leslie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2019 4:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jnelson@law.berkeley.edu; DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D">Well, in practical terms, there are separate RBMS genre terms for 'fictitious imprints' and 'false imprints'.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#5F497A">Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie@folger.edu |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jennifer K NELSON<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 17 June, 2019 16:21<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Is it because intent is important? For example, a book published at "Pooh Corner" - obviously meant to be amusing - and a book published in "Cologne" when the real pub place is Amsterdam, where the book is intended to be marketed to a Catholic
audience, so the place of pub is important (during the Counter-Reformation at least). The first is fictitious, the second is false, and there is a difference in intentionality in the use of place<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:16 PM Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">No problem with your test. My practical question is, is there a cataloging reason why it is important
that I determine that place X is fictitious vs. false, or vice versa? Will I treat the information in a different way depending on if it’s “fictitious” or if it’s “false”? 4B9 just has us copy what’s there and add in brackets the correct place if we know it.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bob</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noble, Richard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2019 2:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Practical (though perhaps supererogatory) reason: For the information of those who cannot satisfactorily resolve the test I suggested,
whether from lack of knowledge or lack of confidence?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">BROWN UNIVERSITY :: PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912 :: 401-863-1187</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><</span><a href="mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE@BROWN.EDU" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">Richard_Noble@Br</span></a><span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://own.edu" target="_blank">own.edu</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:02 PM Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu" target="_blank">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Aside from being an interesting discussion, is there a practical reason why it is important to label
an imprint as “fictitious” rather than “false”? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jennifer K. Nelson, Ph.D., MLIS<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Reference Librarian<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The Robbins Collection<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">UC Berkeley School of Law<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Berkeley CA 94720<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jnelson@law.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">jnelson@law.berkeley.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(510) 643-9709<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.law.berkeley.edu/research/the-robbins-collection/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;letter-spacing:.1pt">https://www.law.berkeley.edu/research/the-robbins-collection/<br>
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