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On the wish list would be not only a signal for alphabetization but also for keyword searches to realize that in a particular case "u" or "v" should produce "correct" results whichever letter the user types.</div>
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Bob<br>
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<div class="PlainText">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568 <br>
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"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu> on behalf of Erin Blake <erin.blake.folger@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 10, 2021 9:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Transcription question: why is our small "s" always an "s" but our small "i" is sometimes a "j"?</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Before any wild rumors start to spread, I'm not in favor of transcribing a long-s as anything other than an ordinary "s" -- even in systems that can display it correctly, I don't think it would alphabetize correctly. I was thinking the other
way around: an "i" should be transcribed as an "i" no matter where it appears in the word.
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<div>HOWEVER, thinking about it some more (thanks, Bob!) has led me to see where my wish to transcribe a final "i" as an "i" (even when it's shaped like a "j") falls apart. We transcribe lowercase "u" and "v" the way they appear in the word, following the early
modern logic of which shape goes where. The fact that we now consider those shapes to be two separate letters, a vowel and a consonant, is irrelevant. Sadly, it means early modern spellings don't alphabetize correctly (because "u" and "v" should be in the
same position).</div>
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<div>Ooooh! Maybe a future cataloging system will allow us to flag records where "u" and "v" should sort in the same position alphabetically, like the way the second indicator in the 245 sets how many characters to skip in order to ignore initial articles in
alphabetization...... You could still search for a specific shape, to make sure you're getting the edition you're looking for, of course. (Yes, I know I'm dreaming.... but wouldn't that be cool?)</div>
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<div>Erin.</div>
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</span></a><a name="x_m_7920196071391456937_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003
| </span></a><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:blue">eblake@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> |
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:blue">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:07 PM Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu" target="_blank">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
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I don't know the answer to this except probably at the time the rules were formulated it was impossible to reproduce the long "s" in MARC (or on your average typewriter in pre-MARC days) and I'm not sure if even now it's possible in OCLC (though you imply it
is). But I suspect if we changed the rules to require (or even optionally allow) transcription of long "s" we'd wind up with lots of people who don't know about the rules seeing these records and deciding in other records to transcribe long "s" as "f", so
I'm not sure what I think about the idea of changing the transcription practice. Are there lots of (or even any) examples where long "s" vs. small "s" makes a difference to the identification of a particular state or issue?</div>
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For my cataloging assignments in Library School we were supposed to TYPE OUT catalog cards (if you can believe it, I am such a dinosaur
<span id="x_gmail-m_7920196071391456937gmail-m_-8931770450300187201🙂">🙂</span>) and one of the books did have long "s"es on the title page; I typed "f" but used whiteout to remove part of the bar to turn each into a long "s" (I
<b>did</b>​ know the difference even at that youthful age) and the cataloging prof thought it was great (other class members who typed plain "f" lost points; of course those who typed "s" were given full credit) but I doubt if many catalogers typing out catalog
cards for real had time to use whiteout in these situations ...</div>
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Bob<br>
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<div>Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568 <br>
<br>
"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.<br>
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<font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>> on behalf of Erin Blake <<a href="mailto:erin.blake.folger@gmail.com" target="_blank">erin.blake.folger@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 10, 2021 4:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] Transcription question: why is our small "s" always an "s" but our small "i" is sometimes a "j"?</font>
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<div>Does anyone know why the DCRM transcription rules about early modern letterforms treat a lowercase "s" different from a lowercase "i"?
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An early modern "s" at the front or in the middle of a word has a different shape than an "s" at the end of the word, but it's still an "s" and we transcribe it as an "s" (despite long-s being a unicode character).<br>
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An early modern "i" at the front or in the middle of a word has a different shape than an "i" at the end of the word, but we transcribe them
<i>differently</i>, using the letter "j" for a terminal "i" (even though it's not a "j", it's a j-shaped "i").</div>
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<div>It struck me particularly when looking at the date on one of Hogenberg's "Geschichtsblätter" (<a href="https://luna.folger.edu/luna/servlet/s/3bm5h6" target="_blank">https://luna.folger.edu/luna/servlet/s/3bm5h6</a>), which I've attached here. (It's the
date of the event depicted in the engraving, not the imprint, so it's not as weird as it looks).</div>
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<div><img alt="image.png" width="549" height="441" data-outlook-trace="F:1|T:1" src="cid:178bef37b8dcb971f161"><br>
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<div>Thanks,</div>
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<div>Erin.</div>
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<p><a name="x_m_7920196071391456937_m_-8931770450300187201_x_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">______________________<br>
</span></a><a name="x_m_7920196071391456937_m_-8931770450300187201_x_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE,
Washington, DC, 20003 | </span></a><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:blue">eblake@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> |
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:blue">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
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