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<p class="MsoNormal">Just to weigh in, I have to agree with Deborah and think we should continue to transcribe this as “&” for the reasons she gives.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">“A stylized Tironian "et" can look like an "e" and a "t" smooshed together, but not like an ampersand.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But that’s exactly what an ampersand is, an “e” and a “t” smooshed together. So if a stylized Tironian “et” can look like that, then there is certainly room for confusion.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I note all the legacy data out there which might argue against changing practice midstream (though as they say the future is longer than the past).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Taking the risk of sounding heretical, I also wonder what the harm of the current practice is. We’re not attempting quasi-facsimile transcriptions. Are there instances where issues or states would be distinguished by the presence of “7”
vs. “&” in another state of the same manifestation?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Erin Blake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 22, 2021 5:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu; DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Tironian "et" revisited: not an ampersand<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In fact, I think the confusion goes the other way around. A stylized Tironian "et" can look like an "e" and a "t" smooshed together, but not like an ampersand. It's a single piece of type that represents the coordinating conjunction in
whatever language was being used, but it's a hybrid symbol in a transitional period, not one or the other. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sometimes the "and" character is obviously an ampersand (looks like "&" and is higher than the x-height), sometimes it's obviously a Tironian et (looks like 7 or a crossed 7 and does not extend above x-height), but others could go either
way: <o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Looks like a 7 with a big curl leading up to it, like that font's <b><i>x</i></b>, and mirroring that font's
<b><i>h</i></b> and <b><i>n</i></b>, e.g. <a href="https://www.e-rara.ch/zuz/content/zoom/165788">
https://www.e-rara.ch/zuz/content/zoom/165788</a> and <a href="https://www.e-rara.ch/gep_g/content/zoom/22373003">https://www.e-rara.ch/gep_g/content/zoom/22373003</a> (but could also be seen as an e-t ligature that doesn't look like
<b><i>&</i></b>)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Looks like a crossed 7 with a big curl leading up to it: <a href="https://www.e-rara.ch/zuz/content/zoom/16181377">https://www.e-rara.ch/zuz/content/zoom/16181377</a> (but could also be seen as an e-t ligature that doesn't look like
<b><i>&</i></b>)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Looks like a crossed 7 with the top bar shortened, e.g. <a href="https://www.e-rara.ch/gep_g/content/zoom/11506108">https://www.e-rara.ch/gep_g/content/zoom/11506108</a> (but could also be seen as an e-t ligature that doesn't look like
<b><i>&</i></b>)<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It's not that catalogers are confusing a gothic <b><i>&</i></b> with a gothic
<b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">⁊</span></b>, (there are gothic fonts where it
<i>is </i>obviously a <b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">⁊</span></b>), it's that the single piece of type used for the coordinating conjunction was designed to look reasonable either way the reader is inclined to see it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">if <b><i>&</i></b> and <b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">⁊</span></b> do end up being treated differently in DCRMR, there needs to be an "in case of doubt" instruction pointing catalogers one way or the other.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Erin.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">______________________<br>
Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 |
</span></a><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">eblake@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> |
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 5:16 PM Jessie Sherwood <<a href="mailto:jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu">jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">Hi Deborah,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">For me, part of the difficulty of transcribing a Tironian et as an ampersand is that it's confusing for researchers/readers who do know the difference and it contributes to DCRMB's
general inconsistency around transcribing abbreviations/brevigraphs, which is a headache for me whenever I work with incunabula (follow the rule or follow the examples? if I'm following the examples, which one do I take as a model?).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">I have seen Tironian ets in print, and my general sense is that while they're unusual in Roman and italic typefaces, they do show up in early blackletter, which is, not surprisingly,
consistent with what was happening in manuscripts (and may be why I'm more familiar with them than those who work more with literature and the classics).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">Examples:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"><a href="https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_01_ex01.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_01_ex01.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"><a href="https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_03_ex03.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_03_ex03.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"><a href="https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_05_ex05.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_05_ex05.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"><a href="https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_06_ex06.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_06_ex06.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"><a href="https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_09_ex09.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.loc.gov/cds/desktop/documents/DCRMBex/DCRMBex_09_ex09.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">Jessie<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 12:55, Deborah J. Leslie <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">Counsel for the opposition reporting in.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">I'm no expert, but here's some of the context surrounding the decision to transcribe a 'Tironian et' as an ampersand. As
Erin mentions, a lot of people were mistaking a blackletter ampersand for a Tironian et. I consulted Paul Needham, incunabulist. Skipping to the end of our conversation, he said that he transcribes all sigla representing 'and' in whatever language as an ampersand.
This approach to transcribing all sigla representing 'and' in print simplifies things and doesn't require that a cataloger know what Tironian notes are. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">Almost all the opposition to this change came from folks in the manuscript community. This got me thinking "why."
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes" target="_blank">Tironian notes</a> were developed as a system of shorthand. Can you call a symbol a Tironian et if other notes from the system aren't also in use?
I could argue that a 7-shaped symbol for 'and' is just a graphical variant of an ampersand, just as both long and short s's are graphical variants of the letter 's'.
</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">The widespread misidentification of Tironian et, even by highly experienced catalogers, argues for simplification of treatment in favor of consistency of meaning. </span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Tironian notes are a manuscript tradition. DCRM(B), and for the moment DCRMR, concerns itself with printed text. I have limited experience with incunables myself, but haven't seen use of Tironian notes (not just the
'et') in use in print. I would be interested to be proved wrong. </span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">As a system of manuscript shorthand that doesn't generally apply to printed text, it should be a part of manuscript-specific instructions. I would further venture to argue that Tironian et's should only be considered
such when they are used with other Tironian notes as part of a system of shorthand. Otherwise, it's just a siglum representing 'and' and the best representation of that is an ampersand. </span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#2E74B5">______________________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#2E74B5">Deborah J Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol Street, S.E. Washington, DC 20003 |
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:#2E74B5;text-decoration:none">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a> |
<a href="http://www.folger.edu/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">www.folger.edu</span></a> | Opinions her own</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erin Blake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 21 September, 2021 12:24<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Tironian "et" revisited: not an ampersand<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Belatedly realized that there's a super-easy way to tell the difference between a Tironian sign "et" and an ampersand, I just didn't think to articulate it before: an ampersand
extends above x-height, a Tironian sign et does not. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Erin.<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">______________________<br>
Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 |
</span></a><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">eblake@folger.edu</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
| </span></span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/G6_BCzp4MAt37BLHXdW1D?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">www.folger.edu</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:28 PM Erin Blake <</span><a href="mailto:erin.blake.folger@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">erin.blake.folger@gmail.com</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">I think Jessie Sherwood is right: the bottom two examples are just fancy Tironian signs (and if I'd opened up
my copy of Jean F. Preston and Laetitia Yeandle's <i>English Handwriting 1400-1650</i>, which was on my desk while I was writing, I'd have seen that their list of typographical examples includes the exact same shape as the first one).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">I was trying to make an e-t ligature out of them, but looking at handwritten Tironian "et" examples (and handwritten
examples where "&" replaces the sound "et" in a word that isn't "and"), they're not [additional evidence: my own online folder of examples is called "Fancy Tironian et"]. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">I'm going to update the blog accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Erin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">______________________<br>
Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 |
</span></span><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">eblake@folger.edu</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
| </span></span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/G6_BCzp4MAt37BLHXdW1D?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">www.folger.edu</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:14 PM Jessie Sherwood <</span><a href="mailto:jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">Also, to my eye, the bottom two examples under ampersand
look more like Tironian ets with swanky approach strokes than e-t ligatures. </span>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">On Mon, 20 Sept 2021 at 12:43, Jessie Sherwood <</span><a href="mailto:jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Is it time to move the Tironian sign "et" into
DCRMR's "Brevigraphs" chart, leaving "&" behind in the "Early letterforms and symbols" chart?
</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif">I think so. As you say, the Tironian et and the ampersand
are not at all the same thing: & is a ligature, while the Tironian et is part an early form of shorthand.
</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">On Mon, 20 Sept 2021 at 11:34, Erin Blake <</span><a href="mailto:erin.blake.folger@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">erin.blake.folger@gmail.com</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Julie Kemper posed an excellent question on the
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/6CKXCADX3rHg8oYH9BRuS?domain=collation.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Folger blog post about Brevigraphs</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">
last week, "<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">One question I have is why ampersands and Tironian notes are treated the same. To me they are separate symbols
and ampersands should be transcribed as “&” while Tironian notes should be transcribed as “[et]”. Am I being overly pedantic about something which hardly anyone cares about?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">That gave me a deja-vu feeling, so I went to the DCRM-L archives, and sure enough, back in
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/qkblCBBX3vS1ymofjH2yY?domain=listserver.lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">2003</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">,
then again in </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/sa8ACDkZ3xi1ymPflBi4_?domain=listserver.lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">2011</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">,
and again in </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/Y5cnCERX3ytmYGPCQUeX-?domain=listserver.lib.byu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">2013</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">
the collective "we" of this list identified the instruction to transcribe a Tironian sign “et” (</span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">⁊</span>) as an ampersand as a problem:
mounting evidence showed that "[et]" would be a more appropriate transcription than "&" but the problem was set aside until "the joint DCRM" was being written. In other words, the time is now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Looking back at the discussions, I think the problem originated because gothic type ampersands (in no. 1 of the
blog post, an "e" and "t" combined) were being conflated with the Tironian sign "et" (no. 8, short-hand representation of the sound "et"):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><b>1.</b> <b> [ampersand]<br>
</b>This is the easy one. Ampersands are still in use today, so instead of expanding the brevigraph <b><i>&</i></b> in square brackets, rare materials catalogers simply use an ampersand. <br>
= & (Latin, </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/2WTICG6X3AHm6lgC14cW3?domain=collation.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">see in context</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">)<br>
= & (English, </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/Sus3CJ6K31HRVzXTyQFAd?domain=collation.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">see in context</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">)<br>
= &c. (Latin, </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/kZcKCKr73GUl6wJH2K9Ot?domain=collation.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">see in context</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">)<br>
<b>8. [<i>7</i> at beginning of word]<br>
</b>An alternative shape for <b><i>&</i></b>, but actually the </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/PVVBCL913GTA7OvC5zTFe?domain=en.wikipedia.org" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">Tironian
short hand</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"> symbol </span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><b><i><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">⁊</span></i></b>,
which represents the <i>sound</i> “et” (rather than the word as such). If a particular font didn’t have a dedicated Tironian sign et, then <b><i>ꝛ</i></b> (a small “</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/7sY2CM8K3Xtg78lHNuMWG?domain=en.wikipedia.org" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">r
rotunda</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">“) could be used. Because the symbol is a representation of <b><i>&</i></b> and because <b><i>&</i></b> is
still used today, rare materials catalogers silently replace it with <b><i>&</i></b>. See no. 1 for ampersandy ampersands.<br>
= & (Latin, </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/4su3CNkK3GiAzxRClfz4y?domain=collation.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">see in context</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">)<br>
= &[cetera] (Latin, with r-rotunda, </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/2TUiCOYX3GiJMXGsR4xgC?domain=collation.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="color:#CC3535">see in context</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">;
see no. 3 for [cetera])<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Is it time to move the Tironian sign "et" into DCRMR's "Brevigraphs" chart, leaving "&" behind in the "Early
letterforms and symbols" chart?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669">Erin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="mso-bookmark:m_416170867788883957_m_32256331586163669"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">______________________<br>
Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 |
</span></span><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">eblake@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> |
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/G6_BCzp4MAt37BLHXdW1D?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif"><a href="mailto:jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">jcsherwood@law.berkeley.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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