<div dir="ltr"><div>If it's any comfort, I think the popular association of "plates" with "full page illustrations" may soon disappear. People rarely see a "List of plates" at the end of the table of contents of a new book anymore, or cross-references to plates within the body of the text. Both colour and black-and-white half-tones are now routinely printed on the same paper stock as the written text. </div><div><br></div><div>In the case of machine-press books, it wasn't necessarily that the format of the leaves of plates was different, or that they were printed from 'plates' (a gathering of glossy paper could have been imposed the same way as the letterpress gatherings, and in the case of stereotyped text, both were printed from 'plates'). Rather, it's that leaves of plates were printed separately, then inserted into the main body of leaves (often as whole gatherings at the end, so there was no need to worry about where the text would be interrupted).</div><div><br></div><div>Erin.</div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_4569911864504233993_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">______________________<br></span></a><a name="m_4569911864504233993_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger
Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC,
20003 | </span></a><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue">eblake@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
| </span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2?domain=urldefense.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
| Pronouns: she/her/hers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:34 AM Deborah J. Leslie <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thinking in the bibliographic community has developed and been refined since ABC; not all of our definitions are still the same. I get that some users may not think
of folded letterpress leaves as 'plates', which is why I usually like to make a note when any are present. (This may be a more recent development in my cataloging, come to think of it.) Most users (and some catalogers, alas) also don't understand that even
a whole leaf consisting entirely of non-letterpress is also not a plate if it's integral with a gathering of letterpress, that is, on a sheet that went through both a common press and a rolling press.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I remember talking at length with Richard Noble and others about the idea of "out-of-formatness" in considering folded letterpress leaves when DCRM(B) was in development.
If leaves are folded to make them fit in the text block, they are by necessity a different format. The concept of out-of-formatness may not be helpful, but the DCRM(B) editors wanted to be able to articulate a principle for our practices, even if the practices
were already existing—as was the case of considering folded tables as plates). <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">______________________________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(94,50,124)">Deborah J. Leslie, MA, MLS | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 |
</span><a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(5,99,193)">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(94,50,124)"> |
</span><a href="http://www.folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(5,99,193)">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(94,50,124)">| Opinions her own</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Steele<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 6, 2021 07:33<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Folded tables<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Deborah. That's what I have always done in the past, and it certainly simplifies cataloging. I guess I was overthinking.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Somehow, I have trouble thinking of gatherings printed on each side of each leaf in the normal way as "plates" except by definition, and I wonder if users of our records think of them as "plates." Cf. ABC of Book Collecting:
<span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">"Properly, plates are whole-sheet illustrations, printed separately from the text ..." On the other hand, I can't think of any other convenient way to treat them.
</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">(Bowers p. 242 ff "Folds inside the gathering" was what I was trying to follow, then I ran up against the problem that the inserted folds were
in a different format from the rest of the text...)</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Bob</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:55 PM Deborah J. Leslie <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu" target="_blank">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If the letterpress leaves are folded, they are, by definition, plates. So,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">300 62, [2] pages, [2] folded leaves of plates ; ǂc 20 cm (8vo)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">500 The folded plates consist of …
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">*Plate. A leaf that is chiefly or entirely non-letterpress, or a folded leaf of any kind, inserted with letterpress gatherings
… </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(46,116,181)">______________________</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(46,116,181)">Deborah J Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol Street, S.E. Washington, DC 20003 |
</span><a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(46,116,181);text-decoration:none">djleslie@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(46,116,181)"> |
</span><a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/saNLCERX3ytY6OXhwF2Gb?domain=folger.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(5,99,193)">www.folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(46,116,181)"> | Opinions her own</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert O. Steele<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 1 December, 2021 15:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" target="_blank">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Folded tables<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Or rather 300 62, [2] pages, [4] folded pages ; ǂc 20 cm (8vo)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Bob<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 3:53 PM Robert O. Steele <<a href="mailto:rosteele2021@gmail.com" target="_blank">rosteele2021@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hello,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I know plates are supposed to be omitted from collation formulas, but what about unsigned letterpress gatherings with a format different from the rest of the work?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm cataloging a work consisting of 4 octavo gatherings, with 2 quarto "insertions". I would be tempted to call them "folded plates" except that they are not plates, but rather
letterpress tables. Each insertion is a quarto bifolium printed with the same type and on the same paper as the rest, and each consisting of 4 distinct pages (the tables do not run across the fold). Since they are larger than the octavo gatherings, they are
also folded up from the bottom. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The quarto bifolia are inserted in reasonable places in my copy, but I'm not sure where they were *intended* to be inserted, possibly inside the last blank leaf (at the end of the
final page: "Suit le tableau ... etc.")<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The simplest:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">62, [2] pages (8vo), [4] pages (4to)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Signatures: [1]⁸ 2-4⁸ (last leaf blank).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With a note explaining the quarto insertions.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But I'm not sure this is accurate.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm tempted by something more complicated such as:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Signatures: : [1]⁸ 2-3⁸ 4⁸ (4₇+chi-²chi²); last leaf blank.
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Advice?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Robert Steele<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">GWU Law<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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