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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hi, all—</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sorry for the late response. Just to add to what Randy and Deborah have already said, based on my memory and a cursory look through some old documents:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The issue of whether to use the word “entry” in 510 $c (for works with numbered entries) was the subject of much debate during the last SCF revision process. Initial drafts did require it (as a parallel to the use of “page”, “column”,
etc.). The instruction was:<span style=""> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>“If a bibliography or catalog is numbered, record the number<b> </b>of the entry exactly as it appears in the source, including the punctuation marks (e.g., hyphen, full stop, etc.) found in the source. Include the term “entry” before
the entry number.”<span style=""> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>After much back and forth, it was subsequently decided to loosen that requirement.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I can sympathize with Bob’s unhappiness about <span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.6667px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
inconsistent data</span> and maintenance issues, but to try to answer his question<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.6667px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> (</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.6667px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">"</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); line-height:15.6933px">What
purpose could artificially adding the word “entry” possibly have?"), <span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.6667px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I thought I'd mention a couple of the arguments I recall being made by those in
favor of including the word “entry”.</span></span></span><span style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>A primary concern was that users not familiar with SCF practices (of which I'm sure there are many!) do not know whether a citation number by itself indicates a page number or an entry number. The user can easily assume that a number
without a caption refers to a page number. A caption (such as “entry”) can remove that ambiguity (or at least lessen it). For example, a user might assume this citation refers to page 25:
<br>
</span><span>Evans, C. American bibliography, 25</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Also, it is not unusual for a citation form to end with a number (or a range of numbers). When numbers at the end of a citation form are then followed by a citation number (without a caption), it can be especially confusing for users
looking at the public display in a catalog. For example:<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="SpellE"><span>Jumonville</span></span><span>, F.M. Bibliography of New Orleans imprints, 1764-1864, 1852</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Hale, J.R. “Newberry Library supplement to the foreign books in M.J.D. Cockle’s A bibliography of English military books up to 1642 and of contemporary foreign works.” In Papers of the Bibliographical Society of America,
volume 55 (1961): 137-39, 621a</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>A caption (such as “entry”) can provide a visual clue that helps the user more easily distinguish the citation form from the citation number:
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="SpellE"><span style="">Jumonville</span></span><span>, F.M. Bibliography of New Orleans imprints, 1764-1864, entry 1852</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Hale, J.R. “Newberry Library supplement to the foreign books in M.J.D. Cockle’s A bibliography of English military books up to 1642 and of contemporary foreign works.” In Papers of the Bibliographical Society of America,
volume 55 (1961): 137-39, entry 621a</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>For catalogers working in MARC, the 510 $c code provides that helpful visual cue of course, but most people don’t see that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Others may remember more about the arguments that were made.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; line-height:107%; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">[This is not an official communication of the Library of Congress].</span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Manon <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailAutoSig"><span style="color:#1F497D">--</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="color:#1F497D">Manon Théroux</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="color:#1F497D">Cataloging Policy Specialist<br>
Policy, Training, and Cooperative Programs Division</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="color:#1F497D">Library of Congress</span></span></p>
<span style=""></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<p><strong>From:</strong> Robert Maxwell <<a href="mailto:robert_maxwell@byu.edu">robert_maxwell@byu.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Date:</strong> February 24, 2022 at 6:12:10 PM EST<br>
<strong>To:</strong> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> <strong>Re: [DCRM-L] spotting a preface before subfield c in 510s</strong><br>
<strong>Reply-To:</strong> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<br>
</p>
<p>I have also noticed (and been irritated by) this, and until Randy pointed it out, I admit, I hadn’t seen the “entry” guidance buried far down in the instructions. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to add a caption not justified by the source.</p>
<p><br>
What purpose could artificially adding the word “entry” possibly have? </p>
<p><br>
The guidance says:</p>
<p>“Include the term “entry” before the entry number only if needed or desired for clarity. Another term may be used if it seems more appropriate to the resource in question. A number standing alone is understood to indicate an entry.”</p>
<p><br>
This reads to me as though the use of the term, far from being required, is only reluctantly allowed (<em>only</em> if needed for clarity). I can hardly imagine a case where it is needed for clarity, especially given “A number standing alone is understood to
indicate an entry.” </p>
<p><br>
The first example after this statement is<br>
Evans, C. American bibliography, entry 2046</p>
<p><br>
Why is this thought to be clearer than<br>
Evans, C. American bibliography, 2046</p>
<p> ? </p>
<p><br>
The “if needed or desired” clause guarantees inconsistency in recording these citation numbers.</p>
<p><br>
Speaking from the point of view of the person who maintains these in BYU’s catalog, the addition of a caption that didn’t come from the source messes up our browse (numerical order) listing of the entries in our Citation index.</p>
<p><br>
I think we shouldn’t be adding captions to citation numbers not supported by the source, and I think the “entry” paragraph should be removed from the document.</p>
<p><br>
Bob</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568<br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.6667px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-------------------------------------------------</span><br>
</p>
<p> <strong>From:</strong> "Deborah J. Leslie" <<a href="mailto:DJLeslie@folger.edu">DJLeslie@folger.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Date:</strong> February 24, 2022 at 6:16:13 PM EST<br>
<strong>To:</strong> <a href="mailto:rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu">rbrandt@library.berkeley.edu</a>, DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> <strong>Re: [DCRM-L] spotting a preface before subfield c in 510s</strong><br>
<strong>Reply-To:</strong> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<br>
</p>
<p>I have a more specific memory of the introduction of the word "entry" in the SCF. It was meant to parallel "page" in the 510$c, which is used for resources without specific entry numbers. Intellectually satisfying, perhaps, but the word "entry" preceding
an entry number added to already-long citations without adding any information. It was formally dropped.
</p>
<p><br>
To Nina's observation that records containing "entry" in the 510 were coded dcrmb: they are not contradictory. There is nothing in dcrmb that specifies which citation system is to be used.
</p>
<p><br>
Considerations around the source coding of individual records (say, dcrmr) and the state of those rules at any given time is only going to become more complex with DCRMR as an integrating resource. This is a good time to be thinking about how to ameliorate
those complexities.</p>
<p>______________________________</p>
<p>Deborah J. Leslie, MA, MLS | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 |
<a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu">djleslie@folger.edu</a> | <a href="http://www.folger.edu/">
www.folger.edu</a> | Opinions her own</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.6667px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-------------------------------------------------</span> </p>
<p><strong>From:</strong> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Randal S. BRANDT<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, February 24, 2022 3:47 PM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [DCRM-L] spotting a preface before subfield c in 510s<br>
<br>
</p>
<p>Hi Nina,</p>
<p>It is an option in the new SCF to use the word "entry". See Working Principles, Numeration, point B: <a href="https://rbms.info/scf/working-principles/">https://rbms.info/scf/working-principles/</a></p>
<p><br>
I seem to remember that it was either required or strongly encouraged to include that term when SCF first came out. Clearly that stance has been softened since then. </p>
<p><br>
Cheers,</p>
<p>Randy</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 2:30 PM Schneider, Nina <<a href="mailto:nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu">nschneider@humnet.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Recently, I noticed that a few OCLC records coded DCRMB in the 040$e have the word “entry” immediately following the subfield c in the citation/reference note.</p>
<p>So, instead of this:</p>
<p>510 4_ English short title catalogue, ǂc S95920</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I’m seeing this:</p>
<p>510 4_ English short title catalogue, ǂc entry S95920</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Admittedly, I haven’t been following recent updates with BSC, but I did look at the MARC website at LC and they don’t prescribe the use of the word “entry” and there’s no mention of its use on the RBMS Standard Citation Forms website.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Perhaps this preface is helpful to someone reading the MARC record, but it seems incorrect from a machine-readable point-of-view. Is there a new policy about adding “entry” to subfield c?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thanks!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nina<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
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