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The issue with early modern people is that how they appear on manifestations during their lifetime isn't necessarily how they're most commonly known, and why forms found in modern reference sources tend to be preferred. If you look at the NAR for Orwin, Joan,
you'll see that both the STC index and the Dictionary of printers list her under her given name. </div>
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<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(46, 116, 181);">______________________</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(46, 116, 181);">Deborah J Leslie
</span><img width="10" height="10" style="width: 10px; height: 10px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" data-outlook-trace="F:1|T:1" src="cid:cd6c9624-f976-41ca-bab9-24aaa9c52cef"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(46, 116, 181);">,
M.A., M.L.S. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | <a href="mailto:djleslie@folger.edu" id="OWA1a298569-97e3-32f4-4d11-1848ea0dd20a" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(46, 116, 181); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
djleslie@folger.edu</a> | Opinions her own</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="color: inherit;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu> on behalf of Lapka, Francis via DCRM-L <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 10, 2024 14:26<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lapka, Francis <francis.lapka@yale.edu>; Robert Maxwell <robert_maxwell@byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] [EXTERNAL] printers' widows</span>
<div> </div>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks Kate (and Bob), these elaborations are helpful.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">My query stems from conversations with colleagues who’d like to do reparative work for women currently traced in the catalog
as Mrs. Husband’s Name, emulating a project undertaken with archival descriptions at Yale (described
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://guides.library.yale.edu/c.php?g=1140330&p=8319100" id="OWA6d53eac6-a6a9-7dd3-082c-06464fd12e5b" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">here</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">),
but for records describing print material at YCBA. The women in question are authors, illustrators, and so on.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">There is I think some frustration and surprise that rules and conventions for headings can lead to “Cowie, Harrison Lee,
Mrs., 1860-1950” when the actual name is known (and the predominant form now). While the “name phrase” context of printers’ widows is indeed a small difference, it’s close enough to make one wonder why we can’t apply the mindset more broadly.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Francis</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Maxwell via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 9, 2024 2:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Robert Maxwell <robert_maxwell@byu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] [EXTERNAL] printers' widows</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Yes, this was an LCRI written by Bibliographic Standards Committee.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Robert L. Maxwell<br>
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger<br>
6728 Harold B. Lee Library<br>
Brigham Young University<br>
Provo, UT 84602<br>
(801)422-5568<br>
<br>
"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" id="OWA68dd7b6b-e89e-fe95-0cfe-d497c9b33069" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James,Kate via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 9, 2024 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" id="OWAb36f1fc9-4ba8-26a1-e2ca-8290f1460fb0" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> James,Kate <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="mailto:jamesk@oclc.org" id="OWA575ef837-686f-6845-804a-058a83e069eb" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">jamesk@oclc.org</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] [EXTERNAL] printers' widows</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Hi Francis,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">One difference is that the names like “Cowie, Harrison Lee, Mrs.” fall under 9.2.2.9, but the printer’s widows form like
“Vidua Christophori Ruremundensis” are considered phrase names (9.2.2.24). The choosing and recording instructions for personal names in RDA were always kind of a mess. RDA 9.2.2.3 Choosing Preferred Name for Person says, “When a person is known by more than
one name, see additional instructions on choosing a preferred name at </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><b><u><a href="https://original.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp9&target=rda9-1771#rda9-1771" id="OWAfe629c28-1d1c-c0c7-280e-b4454981c130" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">9.2.2.6<img id="x_Picture_x0020_4" width="30" height="12" style="width: 0.3229in; height: 0.1354in; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" data-outlook-trace="F:1|T:1" src="cid:image001.png@01DB1B1D.6387FE60"></a></u></b></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">–</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><b><u><a href="https://original.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp9&target=rda9-1870#rda9-1870" id="OWA94661379-260b-1d03-c57b-3a39f98a76ea" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">9.2.2.8<img id="x_Picture_x0020_3" width="30" height="12" style="width: 0.3229in; height: 0.1354in; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" data-outlook-trace="F:1|T:1" src="cid:image001.png@01DB1B1D.6387FE60"></a></u></b></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">.”</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">9.2.2.6 suggests that we would record the phrase as the preferred name since it appears most frequently in manifestations
associated with that person, but that’s not necessarily what we do as you pointed out.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">So, I think it comes from AACR2/LCRI when we had different rules for people that were authors, composers, etc. and other
people. I also think it comes from a strong but often unexpressed preference for using a “real” name over a phrase, especially for pre-20th century people, and especially for women. That printer’s widow LC-PCC PS came from the LCRIs, and I’m certain that it
was in the LCRIs because of request from RBMS. That would have been before my time, but I would say it’s a good guess on my part.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Kate</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b> DCRM-L <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu" id="OWA2e90796e-fe97-9df3-85c5-ae5db80c8922" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapka, Francis via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 8, 2024 10:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu" id="OWA261bb749-60d2-e417-39ef-e22768ee9b18" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lapka, Francis <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="mailto:francis.lapka@yale.edu" id="OWA072ae886-6910-aa54-e2b6-c4cd58dec5a6" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">francis.lapka@yale.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] [DCRM-L] printerss' widows</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Dear list colleagues,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">I’ve recently reacquainted myself with guidance on authorized access points for printers’ widows, in LC-PCC PS 9.19.1.1:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="http://original.rdatoolkit.org/lcpschp9_lcps9-196.html" id="OWA29a5e135-05a9-1430-d6b4-09f5653b16cc" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">http://original.rdatoolkit.org/lcpschp9_lcps9-196.html</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">.
The same guidance (and some confusion therein) was the topic of a discussion on this list in 2013:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://listserver.lib.byu.edu/pipermail/dcrm-l/2013-September/thread.html#3234" id="OWAabaa728f-b52d-bf95-67f4-c4e00a109318" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://listserver.lib.byu.edu/pipermail/dcrm-l/2013-September/thread.html#3234</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">If a printer’s widow is identified in manifestations as “widow of” but her personal name is known, her personal name is
used as the preferred name, as in these examples:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<ul style="margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Verseyl, Elizabeth, -1726:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://lccn.loc.gov/no2012043138" id="OWA6805c24a-d968-b1ec-059e-67d282ac8aa4" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://lccn.loc.gov/no2012043138</a></u></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Orwin, Joan, active 1593-1597:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://lccn.loc.gov/nr98019565" id="OWAf2c6fed4-04b2-3ee3-a90c-c33b345077b9" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://lccn.loc.gov/nr98019565</a></u></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Cussac, Anne-Eìlisabeth, active 1816-1825?:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://lccn.loc.gov/no2013116120" id="OWAad17cd96-035d-16e8-55aa-8cab6b398c5c" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://lccn.loc.gov/no2013116120</a></u></span></li></ul>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">If I’ve understood application correctly – and perhaps I haven’t – this outcome is different than other cases where a woman
is identified in manifestations in the form by (or about) <i>Mrs. Husband’s Name,</i> and the name as it appears in manifestation(s) is used as the preferred name, as in these examples:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<ul style="margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Cowie, Harrison Lee, Mrs., 1860-1950:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://lccn.loc.gov/no2015128982" id="OWA09ba4b59-9470-2abf-20f9-15bf5805e454" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://lccn.loc.gov/no2015128982</a></u></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Cupples, George, Mrs., 1839-1898:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://lccn.loc.gov/n90672060" id="OWA1bc0b183-2f99-e377-6d65-c092d595f8cb" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://lccn.loc.gov/n90672060</a></u></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Ames, Ernest, Mrs., 1853-1929:
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(70, 120, 134);"><u><a href="https://lccn.loc.gov/no2015054850" id="OWAdd901b78-3651-10de-72c5-4cd791e67fb8" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://lccn.loc.gov/no2015054850</a></u></span></li></ul>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Is this an inconsistency? That is, why isn’t something like “Orwin, Widdow, active 1593-1597” the preferred name? If it
is inconsistent, what is the principle behind it? As often the case, I may be missing an obvious explanation.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">I appreciate your thoughts.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Francis</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: YaleNew;">Francis Lapka</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: YaleNew;">Senior Catalog Librarian</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: YaleNew;">Department of Rare Books and Manuscripts</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: YaleNew;">Yale Center for British Art</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: YaleNew;">203-432-9672 ·
</span><span style="font-family: YaleNew; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);"><u><a href="http://britishart.yale.edu/" id="OWA016a7595-21c4-09bf-4c09-1056d68e5df7" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">britishart.yale.edu</a></u></span></p>
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