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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It’s an intriguing discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I rather like retaining “fist” in a collational formula, referring to a printed fist that has no intrinsic meaning. The aim of the collational formula is to be as concise as possible,
and a shorter word aids concision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">And I like “manicules” as a term favoured by researchers when the mark, printed or manuscript, is within the text and has a purpose in pointing to something important.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Differentiating might actually be useful in preventing noise if a user is looking specifically for one use over the other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Karen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Dr Karen Attar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Curator of Rare Books and University Art<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Senate House Library, University of London<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Senate House<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Malet St<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">London WC1E 7HU<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Tel. 020 7862 8472<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><a href="https://research.london.ac.uk/search/fellow/516/dr-karen-attar/"><span lang="DE">https://research.london.ac.uk/search/fellow/516/dr-karen-attar/</span></a></span><span lang="DE" style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Hoover, Sarah via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 22 October 2025 15:36<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hoover, Sarah <sehoover@email.unc.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hello!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Erin is correct that this has come up in the RBMS Controlled Vocabularies Editorial Group, most recently shortly after the new vocabulary was released. The initial discussion at
that time was in favor of separating the terms for printed and manuscript marks into Fists and Manicules, respectively, but since it involved needing a new term proposal for Fists and a change proposal for the existing term Manicules (as well as Indexes, which
references Manicules) we put it on hold until we had those proposals to formally discuss. That discussion was a while back now, so if this thread prompts anyone to be interested in working on that set of proposals, please feel free!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sarah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">CVEG co-editor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sarah Hoover<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Special Collections Cataloger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Wilson Special Collections Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:sehoover@email.unc.edu"><span style="color:#0563C1">sehoover@email.unc.edu</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">919-962-4305<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">she/her/hers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erin Blake via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 22, 2025 9:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <<a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Erin Blake <<a href="mailto:EBlake@FOLGER.edu">EBlake@FOLGER.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I’ve got a memory of this being under discussion in the RBMS Controlled Vocabularies Editorial Group, with the thought that “fist” is the appropriate term for the printed symbol and “manicule” for the hand-drawn one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I think it was set aside during the moratorium, when the old vocabularies were merged into one and migrated from MultiTes to the LC Linked Data Service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">...but it’s entirely possible that this is a conversation Deborah J. Leslie and I were having at the Folger, and it hasn’t gone beyond us, so I’m hoping she’ll jump in.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Erin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">_______________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Erin Blake, PhD | she/her |
<span style="color:black">Collections Management Systems Administrator and </span>
Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | Washington, DC 20003 | </span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">eblake@folger.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-US"><img border="0" width="100" height="40" style="width:1.0416in;height:.4166in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01DC4378.31C123F0" alt="Folger Shakespeare Library logo"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christine Megowan via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 22, 2025 8:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Christine Megowan <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:cmegowan@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">cmegowan@gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hello DCRM-L colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">One of our cataloguers is preparing a signature statement for a book which includes a gathering signed with a pointing hand, which prompted some discussion within our team about
the use of "fists" vs. "manicules" in catalogue records. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">DCRM(B) 7B9.2 and DCRMR 6.215.44.2 both instruct the cataloguer: "If the gatherings are signed with other unavailable characters, substitute a descriptive term or an abbreviation
for that term if a standard abbreviation exists." In both texts, the examples include a pointing hand for which the descriptive term [fist] has been supplied.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If I remember correctly, "fists" was at some point the authorized term for this character in the RBMS Provenance Thesaurus, although I see that it is now a UF under Manicules.
I have certainly encountered the term "manicules" more frequently than "fists" when chatting with other bibliophiles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I confess I am somewhat bothered by the idea of using one term in a signature statement and another in a genre/form heading, but I wondered what the prevailing opinion might
be. Would you follow the example and use [fist] in a signature statement, or favour consistency with CVRMC and go with [manicule]? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Christine Megowan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(Research Collections Discovery & Projects Manager, Heritage Collections, University of Edinburgh)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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