<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#467886;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="#467886" vlink="#96607D" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">One of the main points that came up in the earlier CVEG discussion about the need to distinguish the two types of pointing hands, manuscript vs. printed, is that the manuscript ones are an
indication of reader interaction with the text while the printed marks are there from the time of publication and don’t indicate any kind of interaction, so they are likely to be of interest in different contexts. I agree with that separation and think that
having the collational formula match the term for the printed mark, in contrast to the manuscript mark, makes sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We now have volunteers working on the proposals around these terms and revisions, so stay tuned for further discussion of those in the future!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sarah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Attar via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 22, 2025 12:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Karen Attar <karen.attar@london.ac.uk><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">It’s an intriguing discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">I rather like retaining “fist” in a collational formula, referring to a printed fist that has no intrinsic meaning. The aim of the collational formula is to be as concise as possible, and a shorter
word aids concision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">And I like “manicules” as a term favoured by researchers when the mark, printed or manuscript, is within the text and has a purpose in pointing to something important.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Differentiating might actually be useful in preventing noise if a user is looking specifically for one use over the other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Karen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Dr Karen Attar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Curator of Rare Books and University Art<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Senate House Library, University of London<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Senate House<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Malet St<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">London WC1E 7HU<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Tel. 020 7862 8472<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://research.london.ac.uk/search/fellow/516/dr-karen-attar/"><span lang="DE" style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">https://research.london.ac.uk/search/fellow/516/dr-karen-attar/</span></a><span lang="DE" style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;font-size:pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Hoover, Sarah via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 22 October 2025 15:36<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hoover, Sarah <</span><a href="mailto:sehoover@email.unc.edu"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">sehoover@email.unc.edu</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hello!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Erin is correct that this has come up in the RBMS Controlled Vocabularies Editorial Group, most recently shortly after the new vocabulary was released. The initial discussion at that time was
in favor of separating the terms for printed and manuscript marks into Fists and Manicules, respectively, but since it involved needing a new term proposal for Fists and a change proposal for the existing term Manicules (as well as Indexes, which references
Manicules) we put it on hold until we had those proposals to formally discuss. That discussion was a while back now, so if this thread prompts anyone to be interested in working on that set of proposals, please feel free!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sarah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">CVEG co-editor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sarah Hoover<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Special Collections Cataloger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Wilson Special Collections Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:sehoover@email.unc.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563C1">sehoover@email.unc.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">919-962-4305<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">she/her/hers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erin Blake via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 22, 2025 9:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Erin Blake <</span><a href="mailto:EBlake@FOLGER.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">EBlake@FOLGER.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve got a memory of this being under discussion in the RBMS Controlled Vocabularies Editorial Group, with the thought that “fist” is the appropriate term for the printed symbol and “manicule” for the hand-drawn one.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think it was set aside during the moratorium, when the old vocabularies were merged into one and migrated from MultiTes to the LC Linked Data Service.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">...but it’s entirely possible that this is a conversation Deborah J. Leslie and I were having at the Folger, and it hasn’t gone beyond us, so I’m hoping she’ll jump in.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Erin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">_______________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Erin Blake, PhD | she/her | <span style="color:black">
Collections Management Systems Administrator and </span>Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | Washington, DC 20003 |
</span><a href="mailto:eblake@folger.edu"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">eblake@folger.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span><img border="0" width="100" height="40" style="width:1.0416in;height:.4166in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01DC4430.EF3EC6E0" alt="Folger Shakespeare Library logo"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> DCRM-L <</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l-bounces@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christine Megowan via DCRM-L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 22, 2025 8:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DCRM Users' Group <</span><a href="mailto:dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">dcrm-l@lib.byu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Christine Megowan <</span><a href="mailto:cmegowan@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">cmegowan@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [DCRM-L] Fists or Manicules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hello DCRM-L colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">One of our cataloguers is preparing a signature statement for a book which includes a gathering signed with a pointing hand, which prompted some discussion within our team about the use
of "fists" vs. "manicules" in catalogue records. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">DCRM(B) 7B9.2 and DCRMR 6.215.44.2 both instruct the cataloguer: "If the gatherings are signed with other unavailable characters, substitute a descriptive term or an abbreviation for that
term if a standard abbreviation exists." In both texts, the examples include a pointing hand for which the descriptive term [fist] has been supplied.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If I remember correctly, "fists" was at some point the authorized term for this character in the RBMS Provenance Thesaurus, although I see that it is now a UF under Manicules. I have certainly
encountered the term "manicules" more frequently than "fists" when chatting with other bibliophiles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I confess I am somewhat bothered by the idea of using one term in a signature statement and another in a genre/form heading, but I wondered what the prevailing opinion might be. Would you
follow the example and use [fist] in a signature statement, or favour consistency with CVRMC and go with [manicule]? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Christine Megowan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(Research Collections Discovery & Projects Manager, Heritage Collections, University of Edinburgh)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>