[DCRM-L] Folio format question

Tue Dec 1 17:33:16 MST 2009

The two most useful sources for the discussion of size (for early books) and format (for all books) are:

Paul Needham, "Res papirea: sizes and formats of the late medieval book", pp. [123]-145 in "Rationalisierung der Buchherstellung im Mittlealter und in der frühen Neuzeit: Ergebnisse eines buchgeschichtlichen Seminars Wolfenbüttel 12.-14. November 1990" (Marburg an der Lahn: Institut für Historische Hilfswissenschaften, 1994) [Elementa diplomatica 2]

G. Thomas Tanselle, "The concept of format," pp. 67-116 in "Studies in Bibliography" 53 (2000).

Needham lists the four standard paper sizes (and mentions a few other much rarer sizes) that were stable "well into the sixteenth century" and surely still in 1502, of which the one that might provide a 4to on half sheets is Imperial (sheet size 49 x 74 cm; half-sheet size 37 x 49 cm; a quarto on half sheets would thus be no larger than 37 x 24.5 cm.).

Tanselle provides his usual thorough historical and logical analysis of the uses and meaning of format; with reference to the issue under consideration here, the most relevant aspect of his discussion is that he demonstrates that the original size of the sheet can't be (pace Greg and Bowers) the defining factor (in part because it can't always be determined - for instance, if a double mold was used, did it produce two sheets with chain lines turned from the usual orientation, i.e. with a central cross bar; or did it produce a single double-size sheet, i.e. with no central cross bar?).  

Rather the size of the sheet the printer used to produce the edition (or portion of an edition) in question, in relation to the imposition, is the basis of definition.  [This is much too condensed; one really needs to read the article.  Easily done, as SB is available on-line, free, at http://etext.virginia.edu/bsuva/sb/]

Needham's article is less readily available, but there are a few dozen holding libraries in the U.S., so interlibrary loan, either of the volume or of a copy of the article, should be possible for most of us.

Many more references, for these and other topics, are to be found in Tanselle's "Introduction to Bibliography" syllabus, available on-line, free, thanks to Tanselle and the Rare Book School:  http://www.rarebookschool.org/tanselle/syl-B-complete.090302.pdf

--
John Lancaster (jlancaster at amherst.edu)
P.O. Box 775
Williamsburg, MA 01096-0775
413-268-7679

-----Original Message-----
From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Deborah J. Leslie
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:18 PM
To: DCRM Revision Group List
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Folio format question

I just looked at paper sizes in Gaskell, and among the super royal paper, he lists an exemplar of 14th century Italian paper at 74 x 50 cm. (p. 73). It may be he hadn't come across any 15th or 16th century Italian super royal paper, but since Holland, France and England also produced huge paper during the 17th and 18th century, I will believe that late 15th/early 16th c. Italian paper existed at such sizes.

Taking our 74 x 50 cm paper, cutting it in half leaves two sheets 50 x 37 cm each. When imposed two leaves per cut sheet, we would end up with a book 37 x 25 cm, a quarto looking for all the world like a folio. Thanks, Silvana, for bringing this up. 

-----Original Message-----
From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of silvanan at mptek.net
Sent: Tuesday, 01 December, 2009 17:45
To: DCRM Revision Group List
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Folio format question

hi Deborah,
I already sent the book on to preservation. It was pretty narrow
compared to height, did
not not look like a quarto at all. But I believe it is. I got this
response from exlibris:

Double-size sheets of paper were sometimes cut in half for printing,
since
the old hand presses were not sufficiently powerful for such a large
surface. In Principles of Bibliographical Description, at p. 194, Bowers
terms the form folio-form quarto, the principle being that the format is
determined by the number of leaves per sheet, regardless of how imposed
or
printed.

Michael Wasserman
Nostre Livers - Antiquarian and Scholarly Law Books

I read up on it and it totally fits the bill. 
It just feels so strange describing it a quarto!

-Silvana

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Folio format question
> From: "Deborah J. Leslie" <DJLeslie at FOLGER.edu>
> Date: Tue, December 01, 2009 5:19 pm
> To: "DCRM Revision Group List" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> What is the other measurement, Silvana? 33 cm is pretty tall for a
> quarto, but the proportion of height to width would give us more
> information. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On
> Behalf Of kcoblenz at nypl.org
> Sent: Tuesday, 01 December, 2009 17:02
> To: dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu
> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Folio format question
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:37:22 -0700
> From: silvanan at mptek.net
> Subject: [DCRM-L] folio format question
> To: EXLIBRIS-L at LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU, "DCRM-L" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> Message-ID:
>  
> <20091130123722.aada3882fa1d23e7e11023bce2129f76.a7c4b706f2.wbe at email.se
> cureserver.net>
>  
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> Hi all,
> Can a folio have horizontal chain lines?
> My book:
> Philostratus De uita Apollonii Tyanei scriptor luculentus 
> Venice : Vitali, 1502
> 33 cm
> sig: A-L6 M-N4 O6
> w/ horizontal chain lines (can't really see any watermarks)
> Sure looks like a folio to me ...
> -Silvana
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> EDIT16 lists it as a quarto, which accords with the horizontal chain 
> lines. Same fingerprint?
> See: http://edit16.iccu.sbn.it/scripts/iccu_ext.dll?fn=10&i=37827
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Kathie Coblentz, Rare Materials Cataloger
> Collections Strategy/Special Formats Processing
> The New York Public Library, Stephen A. Schwarzman Building
> 5th Avenue and 42nd Street
> New York, NY  10018
> kcoblenz at nypl.org