[DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

[Manon Theroux]

I just thought I'd mention that DCRM(B) covers these sorts of unused
signatures in rule 7B9.6 (concurrent signatures).

The rule was added during the revision of DCRB to DCRM(B) to better
accommodate the description of 19th-century materials. The original
recommendation and rationale can be found in the area 7 section of this
document:
http://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmb/DCRMmachinepress121502.pdf

Some brief articles on the topic for further reading:
Nowell-Smith, S. "Signatures in some nineteenth-century Massachusetts
duodecimos: a query," Library, 5th series, 3.1 (1948):58-62. [and responses
in subsequent issues by W.A. Jackson and A.T Hazen]

The pattern I have seen most often with concurrent signing is one set will
be an alphabetic sequence and the other set will be a numeric sequence.
Amy's query would seem to indicate that her book has only alphabetic
sequences, which makes me wonder - is it possible that her question has
been misinterpreted and this is not a concurrent signing situation after
all? I confess when I first read it, I thought she was either asking how
and whether to show the pattern of signings on specific leaves within
gatherings, e.g. how to show that in gathering B, two leaves are signed,
one as B and another as B2 OR how to indicate a gathering that has
duplicate letters, e.g. Aa. These are both common occurrences, of course,
but I think she indicated she doesn't do signatures very often so they
seemed like natural questions to have. But maybe I didn't understand the
question myself, entirely possible!

Manon

--
Manon Théroux
Head of Technical Services
U.S. Senate Library
Washington, DC 20510

On Sep 26, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Ted P Gemberling <tgemberl at uab.edu> wrote:

 Thanks again for explaining that. It’s a very interesting topic.

Ted Gemberling



*From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
<dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
*Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2014 3:29 PM
*To:* DCRM Users' Group
*Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures



I think plates may have come this way--later Burns printings in this
country (late ca. 1850s onwards) sometimes were printed from rather tired
British plates--I think. It was a long time ago that I worked with that
collection, before I'd done much work with books other than C18 British
ones.

It appears that American book printers didn't print directly from type, but
from plates (this is perhaps too summarily stated, from Michael Winship).
Compositors would set signatures, but in many many cases no book was ever
printed from the plates with the indicated structure. In that way the link
between composition and presswork was pretty much severed, though
signatures, being habitual, kept appearing. British books retained them
into the late c20, and I've never met one with a non-matching structure.


 RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY

BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187

<Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>



On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu>
wrote:

I'm trying to think whether I've ever seen that practice in a British book.
I think not, but will pay more attention. However, weren't plates sold or
exchanged between North America and Britain?



Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
folger.edu



*From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
Behalf Of *Ted P Gemberling
*Sent:* Friday, 26 September 2014 11:58


*To:* DCRM Users' Group
*Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures



Linde,

I remember in the Rare Book School course I took from Richard, he suggested
that maybe this is peculiar to American books because technological change
was faster in America than in Europe. American printers were more likely to
use plates with signatures that were meaningful in an earlier edition but
no longer in the new one. Did I get this right, Richard? I don’t want to
misrepresent what you said. But it is an interesting phenomenon. I’m glad I
don’t have to worry about it at my library because we don’t put signatures
on any books from the machine printing period, when the method of printing
from plates was invented. It must have been a great technological advance
when it was invented! Imagine not having to set the type again for each
edition.

Ted Gemberling

UAB Lister Hill Library



*From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
<dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Linde B.
*Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2014 10:30 AM
*To:* DCRM Users' Group
*Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures



I was not calling into question the AAS's cataloging, by any means.  I was
simply curious about what the phenomenon actually was and what it
signified, which you've elucidated wonderfully, Richard.

Thanks!

Linde



On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
wrote:

The signatures are referred to as "unused". They are an element of the
printing plates, which could actually be arranged on the press in a
different way, that is, to produce a different format, and often were.

In some cases the plates contained two sets of signatures--often
alphabetical signatures for 8s and numerical signatures for 12s--and in
many cases neither set was used. This is a strictly American practice, as
far as I've ever seen--I've never seen it in a British or continental book.
It became so ridiculous that American printers generally abandoned the use
of signatures altogether over the course of the 1870s.

It is often possible to establish the actual structure of the book (the
arrangement of the leaves into gatherings), but unless you're familiar with
the phenomenon, and confident about your  ability to analyze the structure,
there's no reason worry about a collation. It's still possible to state
what the signatures are purely as an element of the printing plates,
without saying anything about format. Still, for most situations, a good
account of the pagination will suffice.

This is an early example, and I'd certainly remark on it for its value as
evidence regarding American printing practice of the period and place--but
Deborah's quite right to suggest being content with the AAS record--they're
... ummm ... pretty good at cataloging.

FWIW, there are examples of formal treatment in the Brown University
catalog:

http://josiah.brown.edu/search/X=%22unused+signatures%22




 RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY

BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187

<Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>



On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Linde B. <linde.brocato at gmail.com> wrote:



On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu>
wrote:

For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion
that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much
room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702



Just out of curiosity, why?

Are they meaningless?

Is this just too modern for us?

Linde M. Brocato



Begin forwarded message:

*From:* "Deborah J. Leslie" <DJLeslie at FOLGER.edu>
*Date:* September 25, 2014 at 5:38:00 PM EDT
*To:* "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
*Subject:* *Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures*
*Reply-To:* "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>

For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion
that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much
room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702



Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
folger.edu



*From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
<dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Weiss, Amy
*Sent:* Thursday, 25 September 2014 17:01
*To:* DCRM Users' Group
*Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures



The works of Robert Burns with an account of his life…. Philadelphia : J.
Crissy, 1839.  Seems to be an abridgement of a much larger (4 volume) work,
has been reprinted and reworked many times by numerous publishers.  None of
the other records I looked at matched and nobody tried to do anything with
signatures.    Amy



*From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
<dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Deborah J. Leslie
*Sent:* Thursday, September 25, 2014 4:56 PM
*To:* DCRM Users' Group
*Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures



Oh wait, you said it was an 8vo. It still would help to know what book it
is.



Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
folger.edu



*From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
<dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Weiss, Amy
*Sent:* Thursday, 25 September 2014 16:19
*To:* dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu
*Subject:* [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures



Hello--



Okay, maybe it is a really common pattern but most of what I catalog is too
young for signatures at all so I’m hoping one of you can help:  I have a
book (8vo) that has signatures reading B, B2, C, C2, followed by Aa, Aa2
etc.  Do I need  to show those second signatures, and if so, how?  Or do I
just take them in stride and maybe make a note?



Thanks in advance for your help,



Amy Weiss

Special Collections Cataloger/Head of Cataloging

Florida State University
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