[DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

Mon Sep 29 09:06:34 MDT 2014

Unfortunately no.

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Noble, Richard
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 11:00 AM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

Are you able to see where sewing threads appear in the gutter? That tells you where the center of the gathering is--big clue.

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Br<mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu<http://own.edu>>

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Weiss, Amy <akweiss at fsu.edu<mailto:akweiss at fsu.edu>> wrote:
Bxxxxxxx B2xxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx C2xxxxxxx

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] On Behalf Of Noble, Richard
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 10:23 AM

To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

Hmmm...  There doesn't seem to be a digital version of this book, and so far I don't know quite what is being described (I now realize, thanks to Manon's question). Is it possible to give an explicit leaf-by-leaf sample of the signature pattern(s)? e.g.

Is it basically B B2 x x x x x x C C2 x x x x x x ... Z Z2 x x x x x x Aa Aa2 x x x x x x Bb Bb2 x x x x x x

in a continuous sequence, or something weirder than that? If that example represented the full range of signatures in a book it would translate to

[A]^8 B-2B^8 [$2 signed]

Sorry if the question seems too simple-minded. It's sometimes hard to assess exactly how much experience can be assumed in responding to written queries.

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187<tel:401-863-1187>
<Richard_Noble at Br<mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu<http://own.edu>>

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Weiss, Amy <akweiss at fsu.edu<mailto:akweiss at fsu.edu>> wrote:
Examining the book against the definition of unused signatures it would appear that I have unused signatures, made more complicated by the use of alphabetical characters for both sets of signatures.  The signatures do go up to a second alphabet and the unused signatures appear to continue.   Amy

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] On Behalf Of Manon Theroux
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 6:56 AM

To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

I just thought I'd mention that DCRM(B) covers these sorts of unused signatures in rule 7B9.6 (concurrent signatures).

The rule was added during the revision of DCRB to DCRM(B) to better accommodate the description of 19th-century materials. The original recommendation and rationale can be found in the area 7 section of this document:
http://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmb/DCRMmachinepress121502.pdf

Some brief articles on the topic for further reading:
Nowell-Smith, S. "Signatures in some nineteenth-century Massachusetts duodecimos: a query," Library, 5th series, 3.1 (1948):58-62. [and responses in subsequent issues by W.A. Jackson and A.T Hazen]

The pattern I have seen most often with concurrent signing is one set will be an alphabetic sequence and the other set will be a numeric sequence. Amy's query would seem to indicate that her book has only alphabetic sequences, which makes me wonder - is it possible that her question has been misinterpreted and this is not a concurrent signing situation after all? I confess when I first read it, I thought she was either asking how and whether to show the pattern of signings on specific leaves within gatherings, e.g. how to show that in gathering B, two leaves are signed, one as B and another as B2 OR how to indicate a gathering that has duplicate letters, e.g. Aa. These are both common occurrences, of course, but I think she indicated she doesn't do signatures very often so they seemed like natural questions to have. But maybe I didn't understand the question myself, entirely possible!

Manon

--
Manon Théroux
Head of Technical Services
U.S. Senate Library
Washington, DC 20510

On Sep 26, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Ted P Gemberling <tgemberl at uab.edu<mailto:tgemberl at uab.edu>> wrote:
Thanks again for explaining that. It’s a very interesting topic.
Ted Gemberling

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Noble, Richard
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 3:29 PM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

I think plates may have come this way--later Burns printings in this country (late ca. 1850s onwards) sometimes were printed from rather tired British plates--I think. It was a long time ago that I worked with that collection, before I'd done much work with books other than C18 British ones.
It appears that American book printers didn't print directly from type, but from plates (this is perhaps too summarily stated, from Michael Winship). Compositors would set signatures, but in many many cases no book was ever printed from the plates with the indicated structure. In that way the link between composition and presswork was pretty much severed, though signatures, being habitual, kept appearing. British books retained them into the late c20, and I've never met one with a non-matching structure.

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187<tel:401-863-1187>
<Richard_Noble at Br<mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu<http://own.edu>>

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu<mailto:DJLeslie at folger.edu>> wrote:
I'm trying to think whether I've ever seen that practice in a British book. I think not, but will pay more attention. However, weren't plates sold or exchanged between North America and Britain?

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> | 202.675-0369<tel:202.675-0369> | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu<http://folger.edu>

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] On Behalf Of Ted P Gemberling
Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 11:58

To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

Linde,
I remember in the Rare Book School course I took from Richard, he suggested that maybe this is peculiar to American books because technological change was faster in America than in Europe. American printers were more likely to use plates with signatures that were meaningful in an earlier edition but no longer in the new one. Did I get this right, Richard? I don’t want to misrepresent what you said. But it is an interesting phenomenon. I’m glad I don’t have to worry about it at my library because we don’t put signatures on any books from the machine printing period, when the method of printing from plates was invented. It must have been a great technological advance when it was invented! Imagine not having to set the type again for each edition.
Ted Gemberling
UAB Lister Hill Library

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Linde B.
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 10:30 AM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

I was not calling into question the AAS's cataloging, by any means.  I was simply curious about what the phenomenon actually was and what it signified, which you've elucidated wonderfully, Richard.
Thanks!
Linde

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu<mailto:richard_noble at brown.edu>> wrote:
The signatures are referred to as "unused". They are an element of the printing plates, which could actually be arranged on the press in a different way, that is, to produce a different format, and often were.

In some cases the plates contained two sets of signatures--often alphabetical signatures for 8s and numerical signatures for 12s--and in many cases neither set was used. This is a strictly American practice, as far as I've ever seen--I've never seen it in a British or continental book. It became so ridiculous that American printers generally abandoned the use of signatures altogether over the course of the 1870s.

It is often possible to establish the actual structure of the book (the arrangement of the leaves into gatherings), but unless you're familiar with the phenomenon, and confident about your  ability to analyze the structure, there's no reason worry about a collation. It's still possible to state what the signatures are purely as an element of the printing plates, without saying anything about format. Still, for most situations, a good account of the pagination will suffice.
This is an early example, and I'd certainly remark on it for its value as evidence regarding American printing practice of the period and place--but Deborah's quite right to suggest being content with the AAS record--they're ... ummm ... pretty good at cataloging.
FWIW, there are examples of formal treatment in the Brown University catalog:

http://josiah.brown.edu/search/X=%22unused+signatures%22

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187<tel:401-863-1187>
<Richard_Noble at Br<mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu<http://own.edu>>

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Linde B. <linde.brocato at gmail.com<mailto:linde.brocato at gmail.com>> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu<mailto:DJLeslie at folger.edu>> wrote:
For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702

Just out of curiosity, why?
Are they meaningless?
Is this just too modern for us?
Linde M. Brocato

Begin forwarded message:
From: "Deborah J. Leslie" <DJLeslie at FOLGER.edu<mailto:DJLeslie at FOLGER.edu>>
Date: September 25, 2014 at 5:38:00 PM EDT
To: "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
Reply-To: "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>
For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> | 202.675-0369<tel:202.675-0369> | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu<http://folger.edu>

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Weiss, Amy
Sent: Thursday, 25 September 2014 17:01
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

The works of Robert Burns with an account of his life…. Philadelphia : J. Crissy, 1839.  Seems to be an abridgement of a much larger (4 volume) work, has been reprinted and reworked many times by numerous publishers.  None of the other records I looked at matched and nobody tried to do anything with signatures.    Amy

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Deborah J. Leslie
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 4:56 PM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

Oh wait, you said it was an 8vo. It still would help to know what book it is.

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> | 202.675-0369<tel:202.675-0369> | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu<http://folger.edu>

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Weiss, Amy
Sent: Thursday, 25 September 2014 16:19
To: dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
Subject: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

Hello--

Okay, maybe it is a really common pattern but most of what I catalog is too young for signatures at all so I’m hoping one of you can help:  I have a book (8vo) that has signatures reading B, B2, C, C2, followed by Aa, Aa2 etc.  Do I need  to show those second signatures, and if so, how?  Or do I just take them in stride and maybe make a note?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Amy Weiss
Special Collections Cataloger/Head of Cataloging
Florida State University

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