[DCRM-L] Unusual signatures

[Noble, Richard]

Oh Lord ... don't get us started.

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Weiss, Amy <akweiss at fsu.edu> wrote:

>  Thank you all for your input!  I didn’t think anyone would respond!   Amy
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Deborah J. Leslie
> *Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2014 11:29 AM
>
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> We can't really help without being able to see the book. In general,
> though, I'd like to encourage (with a capital 'E') that catalogers receive
> training in collating before attempting to record signature statements in
> catalog records. It's much more important that everything in the record be
> accurate than it is to have optional extras (like signature statements)
> that may or may not be reliable. Thorough may be good, but not at the
> expense of accuracy. When it comes to machine-made books, collation is best
> left to the bibliographers.
>
>
>
> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
> 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
> folger.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
> <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Monday, 29 September 2014 11:00
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> Are you able to see where sewing threads appear in the gutter? That tells
> you where the center of the gathering is--big clue.
>
>
>  RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Weiss, Amy <akweiss at fsu.edu> wrote:
>
> Bxxxxxxx B2xxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx C2xxxxxxx
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2014 10:23 AM
>
>
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> Hmmm...  There doesn't seem to be a digital version of this book, and so
> far I don't know quite what is being described (I now realize, thanks to
> Manon's question). Is it possible to give an explicit leaf-by-leaf sample
> of the signature pattern(s)? e.g.
>
>
>
> Is it basically B B2 x x x x x x C C2 x x x x x x ... Z Z2 x x x x x x Aa
> Aa2 x x x x x x Bb Bb2 x x x x x x
>
>
>
> in a continuous sequence, or something weirder than that? If that example
> represented the full range of signatures in a book it would translate to
>
>
>
> [A]^8 B-2B^8 [$2 signed]
>
>
>
> Sorry if the question seems too simple-minded. It's sometimes hard to
> assess exactly how much experience can be assumed in responding to written
> queries.
>
>
>  RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Weiss, Amy <akweiss at fsu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Examining the book against the definition of unused signatures it would
> appear that I have unused signatures, made more complicated by the use of
> alphabetical characters for both sets of signatures.  The signatures do go
> up to a second alphabet and the unused signatures appear to continue.   Amy
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Manon Theroux
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 28, 2014 6:56 AM
>
>
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> I just thought I'd mention that DCRM(B) covers these sorts of unused
> signatures in rule 7B9.6 (concurrent signatures).
>
> The rule was added during the revision of DCRB to DCRM(B) to better
> accommodate the description of 19th-century materials. The original
> recommendation and rationale can be found in the area 7 section of this
> document:
> http://rbms.info/dcrm/dcrmb/DCRMmachinepress121502.pdf
>
> Some brief articles on the topic for further reading:
> Nowell-Smith, S. "Signatures in some nineteenth-century Massachusetts
> duodecimos: a query," Library, 5th series, 3.1 (1948):58-62. [and responses
> in subsequent issues by W.A. Jackson and A.T Hazen]
>
> The pattern I have seen most often with concurrent signing is one set will
> be an alphabetic sequence and the other set will be a numeric sequence.
> Amy's query would seem to indicate that her book has only alphabetic
> sequences, which makes me wonder - is it possible that her question has
> been misinterpreted and this is not a concurrent signing situation after
> all? I confess when I first read it, I thought she was either asking how
> and whether to show the pattern of signings on specific leaves within
> gatherings, e.g. how to show that in gathering B, two leaves are signed,
> one as B and another as B2 OR how to indicate a gathering that has
> duplicate letters, e.g. Aa. These are both common occurrences, of course,
> but I think she indicated she doesn't do signatures very often so they
> seemed like natural questions to have. But maybe I didn't understand the
> question myself, entirely possible!
>
> Manon
>
> --
>
> Manon Théroux
>
> Head of Technical Services
>
> U.S. Senate Library
>
> Washington, DC 20510
>
>
> On Sep 26, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Ted P Gemberling <tgemberl at uab.edu> wrote:
>
>  Thanks again for explaining that. It’s a very interesting topic.
>
> Ted Gemberling
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
> <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2014 3:29 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> I think plates may have come this way--later Burns printings in this
> country (late ca. 1850s onwards) sometimes were printed from rather tired
> British plates--I think. It was a long time ago that I worked with that
> collection, before I'd done much work with books other than C18 British
> ones.
>
> It appears that American book printers didn't print directly from type,
> but from plates (this is perhaps too summarily stated, from Michael
> Winship). Compositors would set signatures, but in many many cases no book
> was ever printed from the plates with the indicated structure. In that way
> the link between composition and presswork was pretty much severed, though
> signatures, being habitual, kept appearing. British books retained them
> into the late c20, and I've never met one with a non-matching structure.
>
>
>  RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to think whether I've ever seen that practice in a British
> book. I think not, but will pay more attention. However, weren't plates
> sold or exchanged between North America and Britain?
>
>
>
> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
> 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
> folger.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Ted P Gemberling
> *Sent:* Friday, 26 September 2014 11:58
>
>
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> Linde,
>
> I remember in the Rare Book School course I took from Richard, he
> suggested that maybe this is peculiar to American books because
> technological change was faster in America than in Europe. American
> printers were more likely to use plates with signatures that were
> meaningful in an earlier edition but no longer in the new one. Did I get
> this right, Richard? I don’t want to misrepresent what you said. But it is
> an interesting phenomenon. I’m glad I don’t have to worry about it at my
> library because we don’t put signatures on any books from the machine
> printing period, when the method of printing from plates was invented. It
> must have been a great technological advance when it was invented! Imagine
> not having to set the type again for each edition.
>
> Ted Gemberling
>
> UAB Lister Hill Library
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
> <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Linde B.
> *Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2014 10:30 AM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> I was not calling into question the AAS's cataloging, by any means.  I was
> simply curious about what the phenomenon actually was and what it
> signified, which you've elucidated wonderfully, Richard.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Linde
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
> wrote:
>
> The signatures are referred to as "unused". They are an element of the
> printing plates, which could actually be arranged on the press in a
> different way, that is, to produce a different format, and often were.
>
> In some cases the plates contained two sets of signatures--often
> alphabetical signatures for 8s and numerical signatures for 12s--and in
> many cases neither set was used. This is a strictly American practice, as
> far as I've ever seen--I've never seen it in a British or continental book.
> It became so ridiculous that American printers generally abandoned the use
> of signatures altogether over the course of the 1870s.
>
> It is often possible to establish the actual structure of the book (the
> arrangement of the leaves into gatherings), but unless you're familiar with
> the phenomenon, and confident about your  ability to analyze the structure,
> there's no reason worry about a collation. It's still possible to state
> what the signatures are purely as an element of the printing plates,
> without saying anything about format. Still, for most situations, a good
> account of the pagination will suffice.
>
> This is an early example, and I'd certainly remark on it for its value as
> evidence regarding American printing practice of the period and place--but
> Deborah's quite right to suggest being content with the AAS record--they're
> ... ummm ... pretty good at cataloging.
>
> FWIW, there are examples of formal treatment in the Brown University
> catalog:
>
> http://josiah.brown.edu/search/X=%22unused+signatures%22
>
>
>
>
>  RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Linde B. <linde.brocato at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu>
> wrote:
>
> For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion
> that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much
> room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702
>
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, why?
>
> Are they meaningless?
>
> Is this just too modern for us?
>
> Linde M. Brocato
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* "Deborah J. Leslie" <DJLeslie at FOLGER.edu>
> *Date:* September 25, 2014 at 5:38:00 PM EDT
> *To:* "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* *Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures*
> *Reply-To:* "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
>
>  For good reason! Run away from those signatures (and even the assertion
> that it's an 8vo) as fast as you can and don't look back. There's not much
> room for improvement on the AAS's master record: 191238702
>
>
>
> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
> 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
> folger.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
> <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Weiss, Amy
> *Sent:* Thursday, 25 September 2014 17:01
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> The works of Robert Burns with an account of his life…. Philadelphia : J.
> Crissy, 1839.  Seems to be an abridgement of a much larger (4 volume) work,
> has been reprinted and reworked many times by numerous publishers.  None of
> the other records I looked at matched and nobody tried to do anything with
> signatures.    Amy
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
> <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Deborah J. Leslie
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 25, 2014 4:56 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> Oh wait, you said it was an 8vo. It still would help to know what book it
> is.
>
>
>
> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
> 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
> folger.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu
> <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Weiss, Amy
> *Sent:* Thursday, 25 September 2014 16:19
> *To:* dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu
> *Subject:* [DCRM-L] Unusual signatures
>
>
>
> Hello--
>
>
>
> Okay, maybe it is a really common pattern but most of what I catalog is
> too young for signatures at all so I’m hoping one of you can help:  I have
> a book (8vo) that has signatures reading B, B2, C, C2, followed by Aa, Aa2
> etc.  Do I need  to show those second signatures, and if so, how?  Or do I
> just take them in stride and maybe make a note?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your help,
>
>
>
> Amy Weiss
>
> Special Collections Cataloger/Head of Cataloging
>
> Florida State University
>
>
>
>
>
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