[DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime and more

Wed Feb 11 11:20:47 MST 2015

This is getting more complicated.  Rizio Bruno Santa is correct about the
date of the approbation, 23 February, 1694.  This means that the publisher
wanted to identify this translation with Valfray's 1690 edition of the Le
Livre de S. Gregoire le Grand,... du soin et du devoir des pasteurs, which
actually contains the translation by Jean LeClerc, cure of Soisy, (not to
be identified with the Swiss theologian/biblical critic, 1657-1736), NOT
the translation ascribed to P. Antoine de Marsilly.  In any case, what is
not on the title page cannot be identified as an accurate imprint.

There is another 1694 edition with the title Le pastoral de saint Gregoire
le Grand. Du Ministere et des devoirs des pastureurs. Traduction nouvelle
par P.Antoine de Marsilly, which has an extent of [20], 370 p., very close
to my edition of [14], 370 p.  This 1694 ed has an imprint of: A Paris :
Chez Andre Pralard, rue S. Jacques, a l'Occasion. M.DC.XCIV.
(http://www.sudoc.fr/066612888), in addition to a spelled out "saint"
instead of "s."  The version that I am cataloging might be a pirate of
this one (or issued by Pralard with a separate t.p.?), less likely a
pirate of the Horace Molin editions of 1690 or 1695 which have quite
different paginations.  Unfortunately, none of these editions seem to have
been digitized or available online.

If anyone is still with me, I am even more perplexed about the imprint.  I
cannot tell where this was published or by whom or even when, other than
1694 or later.  The statement Sur l'imprime .... looks like an imprint,
but is not.  It may be easier, however, to treat it as an imprint.  If so,
I could record it using DCRM(B) 4A4, Fictitious or incorrect information:

[France?] :$bSur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey, $d1690 $a [S.l.
:$b s.n., $c not before February 23, 1694]

or using 4B12, 4C5, and 4D2.4/4D5:

[France?] :$bSur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey [i.e. s.n.],
$d1690 [not before February 23, 1694]

There is a further problem in that Paul-Antoine de Marsilly is identified
in the Name Authority File with Louis-Isaac Lemaistre de Sacy, 1613-1684,
a priest of Port Royal, whose name might not have been an obvious selling
point in the 1609's. Paul-Antoine de Marsilly has also been identified
with Nicolas Fontaine (another Port Royal figure) and a canon Prevost (or
Prevot) (chanoine de Melun, Querard, Les supercheries, vol. 1, cols. 36-38
and Barbier, Dictionnaire des ouvrages .... 2. ed., 1822, vol. 1, p. 12),
who was quickly misidentified with the abbe Prevost 1697-1763, see the
Sudoc record).  Querard thinks that Sacy might have been connected with
some earlier works.  The only work identified with Prevost, chanoine de
Melun is a 1695 translation of the Imitation of Christ.  I think,
therefore, that I will leave the current NAF record, although there is
some evidence that Paul Antoine de Marsilly or Antoine de Marsilly is a
pseudonym used by at least three individuals for different works.  I do
not have enough information to clear things up.

I would appreciate any further comments or suggestions on any of this. 
Thank you as always.

Larry
-- 
Laurence S. Creider
Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
University Library
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM  88003
Work: 575-646-4756
Fax: 575-646-7477
lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu

On Tue, February 10, 2015 1:36 pm, Rizio Bruno Santana wrote:
>
> Larry,
>
> There is a digital copy of this book at:
> http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2Vmu21qHY4wC&printsec=frontcover&hl=pt-BR&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> The title page shows 1690, but the "Approbation" (p.[7]) is dated "13
fÃ©vrier 1694".
>
> There is another edition, 1694: http://www.sudoc.fr/066612888
>
> Regards,
>
> Rizio Bruno Sant'Ana
> SeÃ§Ã£o de Obras Raras e Especiais
> Biblioteca MÃ¡rio de Andrade
> Tel. (55 11) 3775-0012
> rbsantana at prefeitura.sp.gov.br
> www.bma.sp.gov.br
>
>
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] Em
nome
> de dcrm-l-request at lib.byu.edu
> Enviada em: terÃ§a-feira, 10 de fevereiro de 2015 17:00
> Para: dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu
> Assunto: DCRM-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 4
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>    1. Re: Sur l'imprime? (Laurence S. Creider)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:36:06 -0700 (MST)
> From: "Laurence S. Creider" <lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu>
> To: "DCRM Users' Group" <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime?
> Message-ID:
> 	<54525.128.123.45.229.1423593366.squirrel at webmail.nmsu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply to this query;
you've all made useful comments.
>
> My experience looking in WorldCat for "sur l'imprime" roughly parallels
John's two-fold division.  Those that might be a pirated edition seem to
have place and to use "sur l'imprime" as the sole imprint.  Legitimate
editions give the imprint of the edition at hand and then say that this is
> "sur l'imprime" of an earlier edition, e.g.
>
> A Paris : $b Sur l'Imprime, $c 1685.
> A Paris : $b Sur l'Imprime, $c Paris chez Claude
> Boudeuille,
> Paris : $b sur l'imprime Leyde chez L. Elzevier, $c 1661.
> Montavban, $b Sur l'imprime Paris, I. Garrel, $c 1682.
> [Rouen, France] : $b Sur l'imprime Amsterdam, Rouen chez L. Maurry, $c
MDCLXX [1670]
>
> Taking John's points, one would get a straight read of:
> Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey, rue Merciere, a la Couronne
d'Or, M.DC. XC.
>
> Which I think in MARC would look like:
> $a [S.l.] : $b [s.n.], ($e [Lyon] :$f Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
Valfrey, $f1690).
>
> More than one of the records in the Catalogue collectif de France, Base
Patrimoine, simply record , 1690 (Lyon : P Valfrey), including a record
from the Bibliotheque Municipale de Lyon (in OCLC, the version of the
record in the BML's online catalog, says Lyon : Pierre Valfrey, 1690.
>
>>From my perspective, the problem with this approach is that it implies
an
> edition published in Lyon by Valfrey in 1690.  The only evidence of such
is the item I have in hand, so that this seems circular.  There is a later
> edition of this translation, but nothing earlier than 1690.  The later
edition has a different extent, [32] 439 [459] p., as opposed to the [14],
> 370 p. of the one I am cataloging.
>
> It seems to me that I have the choice of
>
> 2. Sur l'imprime, a Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
>
> or
>
> 5. $a [S.l.] : $b [s.n.], ($e[Lyon] :$fSur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez
Pierre
> Valfrey ..., $f1690)
>
> or possibly:
> 6. $a [Lyon?] : $b [s.n.], ($f sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
Valfrey,$f1690)
>
> or even
> 7. $a [Lyon?] : $b [s.n.], Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey,$d
1690.
>
> At least, I feel reasonably comfortable eliminating 1, 4, and 5, i.e.,
>
> 1) Lyon : Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
> 3) A Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690
> 4) as no. 3, but with a note that the words "Sur l'imprime" precede "A
>>> Lyon" on the t.p.
>
>
> At this point, I think I am leaning towards no. 6.
>
> Anyone have any further suggestions?  I would like to get this done
before
> I have to move to the RDA-compliant DCRM. :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Larry
>
> --
> Laurence S. Creider
> Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
> University Library
> New Mexico State University
> Las Cruces, NM  88003
> Work: 575-646-4756
> Fax: 575-646-7477
> lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu
>
> On Tue, February 10, 2015 8:47 am, JOHN LANCASTER wrote:
>> In my experience, it?s used either for concealment (of a piracy or a
> work
>> that might get the printer into trouble); or legitimately, as an
> indication of authority (in which case the real imprint is given - as
when
>> an American edition claims to be based on the latest London edition).
> In
>> any case, the one thing certain is that the publication information
> following the phrase is not the information pertaining to the edition in
hand, though it?s sometimes (as in this case) designed to look as if it were.
>> John Lancaster
>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
> wrote:
>>> I'm happy to play ignorant, and ask, "What does sur l'imprim? mean?"
> All
>>> I can think is that it's something like "based on the printed
version",
> an indication of reprinting. In that case, as a prefixed qualification,
it belongs neither to the place nor to the printer. But this could be
altogether off the mark, for all I know.
>>> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY BROWN
UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Brown.edu>
>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Deborah J. Leslie
<DJLeslie at folger.edu>
> wrote:
>>> Doesn't "l'imprime" refer to Valfrey?
>>> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
> 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
folger.edu
>>> From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Randal S. BRANDT
>>> Sent: Monday, 09 February 2015 12:00
>>> To: DCRM Users' Group
>>> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime?
>>> Hi Larry,
>>> I would use your option 2, and in fact have done so in the past. The
> phrase "sur l'imprime" seems to be grammatically connected to "A Lyon",
so I would transcribe it as part of the place of publication.
>>> Randy
>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Laurence S. Creider
>>> <lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>> It has been a few years since I have actually cataloged anything, and
> would appreciate some help with an imprint statement.
>>> I am cataloging a 1690 French translation of Gregory the Great's On
> Pastoral Care.  The imprint reads
>>> Sur l'imprime,  [in small italics]
>>> A LYON,
>>> Chez PIERRE VALFREY, rue Merciere,
>>> a la Couronne d'Or
>>> [horizontal line]
>>> M.DC. XC.
>>> AVEC PRIVILEGE DU ROI.
>>> How should the phrase "Sur l'imprime" be recorded?
>>> Options (without keeping original punctuation and without diacritics)
seem
>>> to include:
>>> 1) Lyon : Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690. 2) Sur
> l'imprime, a Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
>>> 3) A LYON : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690
>>> 4) as no. 3, but with a note that the words "Sur l'imprime" precede "A
> Lyon" on the t.p.
>>> OCLC offers examples of all of these, except possibly 4.  What am I
> missing in DCRM(B) or the examples?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Larry
>>> --
>>> Laurence S. Creider
>>> Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
>>> University Library
>>> New Mexico State University
>>> Las Cruces, NM  88003
>>> Work: 575-646-4756
>>> Fax: 575-646-7477
>>> lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu
>>> --
>>> Randal S. Brandt
>>> The Bancroft Library | University of California, Berkeley
>>> 510.643.2275 | rbrandt at library.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
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