[DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

Tue May 24 11:57:40 MDT 2016

I agree with Margaret and Ted that we should be establishing headings based on usage—generally speaking, them's the rules.  Consequently, the form [personal name] (Firm), would only be used in the exceptional cases where an apparent personal name is actually the name of a corporate body, and I would want to see some sort of explanatory note in the authority record.

The proposed corporate authority record for George Virtue (Firm) gave the following justifications:

          670  Walks about the city and environs of Jerusalem, 1844: ǂb title page (London, George Virtue)

          670  Coyne, J. Stirling. The scenery and antiquities of Ireland, 1843?: ǂb engravings throughout text (London, Geo. Virtue, 26 Ivy Lane)

          670  OCLC, May 20, 2016 ǂb (access point: George Virtue (Firm) ; usage: George Virtue, George Virtue and Co., George Virtue & Co., Geo. Virtue, G. Virtue)

The first 2 give usage for the individual, and do not justify a corporate body heading.  If the cataloger comes across a book with the usage, "George Virtue and Co.," they would then use that book as the justification for the corporate heading. With regard to the 3rd 670,  I think we should be very, very careful when citing usage based on OCLC given the vagaries of recording imprints, which is quite different from the putatively more faithful transcription of the statement of responsibility (perhaps taken with a shovel and a wheelbarrow full of salt?).

Rather than establish the corp. body without an item in hand*, I would add a 670 to the personal name record citing the British Book Trade Index<http://bbti.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/details/?traderid=71832>, including addresses and the note, “Trading as Virtue & Co 1852-6. Also in Bristol, Liverpool & New York.”

Similarly, the usage given in the 1st 670 for lccn n  81145996, James S. Virtue (Firm) suggests that this is not a duplicate of lccn nr 00003457,  J.S. Virtue and Co, but rather duplicates the personal name lccn nr 94002338, Virtue, James Sprent, ǂd 1829-1892. LC is loath to change existing 1xxs on the same record--they are quite happy to merge duplicates.

Finally, Daryl suggested that from a functional perspective, all publishers’ and printers’ names could be considered corporate names.  While I don’t want to fall too far into the rabbit hole of “what is a corporate body, really?<http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo23467602.html>,” I am comfortable saying that an individual can hire employees without become a de facto corporation, particularly if they present themselves as an individual, as in the case of publishers and printers.

Best,

Honor

*Though you could probably dig an exemplar or two up via Hathi Trust or Google books.

Honor Moody

Cataloger

Schlesinger Library

Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study

3 James Street

Cambridge, MA 02138

Tel.: (617) 495-4223

Email: hmoody at radcliffe.harvard.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Margaret F. Nichols
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 12:11 PM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

I agree with Ted. The underlying principle is to formulate the heading (preferred access point) based on usage. So while it doesn't seem justified to me to treat George Virtue as a corporate body when his name appears on the title page as just George Virtue (in other words, when he's presenting himself as an individual), it does seem justified to create an authority record for George Virtue & Co. to cover that period when he presented his business as a corporate body. And yes, there should be a 5xx field on each of the two authority records to refer to the other one.

Two more cents,

Margaret Nichols

_______________________________

Margaret F. Nichols

Rare Materials Cataloging Coordinator

Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections 2B Kroch Library Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-5302 Tel. (607) 255-9667

-----Original Message-----

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Ted P Gemberling

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:31 PM

To: DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>

Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

The important point is that at some point, the publishers decided to add the "and Company" part to the title page. If we treat the personal name as corporate, we are obscuring that change.

Ted

PS Sorry to be finishing my message this way and clogging up your inboxes!

-----Original Message-----

From: Ted P Gemberling

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 5:26 PM

To: 'DCRM Users' Group'

Subject: RE: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

Elaine and others,

I have a feeling that what I said may be out of sync with what other libraries may have done. I wouldn't want to condemn too much what other libraries have done if it worked for them.

Let me just throw this point out: the fact that more than one person worked on something does not generally keep it from being personal name (100) main entry. A professor may have had research assistants who helped him compile his book, yet we still say he is a personal author. If the contributions of the assistants are important, we can add 700's for them as well. We may even determine at some point that they did most of the work, yet I doubt we'd say it was corporate main entry.

Just some thoughts.

Ted

-----Original Message-----

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Shiner, Elaine P.

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 5:00 PM

To: DCRM Users' Group

Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

That would make things a lot easier, and not only in the imprint and the 700 field.  I have a 264 page, 1748 bookseller's catalog published by Thomas Osborne, bookseller.  I think it makes sense to make Thomas Osborne the main entry, even though it's unlikely (although not impossible) that he compiled the catalog himself. If Osborne, Thomas was Thomas Osborne (Firm), then that wouldn't be an issue.

-----Original Message-----

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Daryl Green

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 5:34 PM

To: DCRM Users' Group

Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

Hi all-

Just to stir the pot a little as devil's advocate, and I apologise if I'm stepping out turn here, but couldn't nearly all publishers' and printers' names in an imprint be considered a corporate name? Very rarely was it one man or woman operating a print shop, surely Baskerville wasn't inking, pulling and hanging his sheets by himself, and so the name on the imprint "Printed by John Baskerville" or "Typis" or whatever is actually a mark of a company, run by the named individual, but almost always the work of a body of people?

Just a thought; I'll now strap on my armour for the flurry of replies....

-Daryl

Daryl Green

Rare Books Librarian

University of St Andrews Library

Special Collections Division

Library Annexe

North Haugh

St Andrews

KY16 9WH

Scotland

Tel: +44 (0)1334 462325

The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No SC013532

Echoes from the Vault: a blog from the Special Collections of the University of St Andrews

-----Original Message-----

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Ted P Gemberling

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 5:54 PM

To: DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>

Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

Richard,

I would discourage George Virtue (Firm). When the name on a title page is actually his personal name, use his personal AAP. When it becomes corporate (I suppose because he was working with others who were regarded as his equals to some extent), use George Virtue & Company, or whatever is the predominant usage for the corporate name, with the other forms (*not* including George Virtue (Firm)), as 410's.

When I came to this library, there were a lot of [personal name] (Firm) headings on our records. I ended up removing any I could find except for those that were actually established that way in the NAF. An example of that is Francis Hodgson (Firm). I think people used them locally because they assumed that publishers were always corporate names, and when they'd see a personal-looking name on the title page, an easy way to avoid deciding whether it was really personal was to set up the [personal name] (Firm) heading. The problem is that occasionally, if our library used an automated authority vendor like LTI, those names would be flipped to some completely extraneous corporate name. There was a case where the name of a publisher was flipped to the name of a law firm in Ireland because that firm's authority happened to have that personal name (Firm) as a 410!

Now, of course if your cataloger decides, with your approval, to set up the George Virtue (Firm) authority, that will not be a problem because it will be nationally established as a 110. But I just think it's a good idea to discourage use of such headings unless you know they are really correct. For example, if you know publications continued to have simply the personal name sometime after the person had died.

I think it is true that publishers before 1801 were usually persons unless a corporate identity was indicated by the name.

I agree Larry that there seems to be too much proliferation of J.S. Virtue authorities. It may make sense to request they be consolidated. However, that will be tough, because generally LC does not seem to want to change AAP's very much.

Just my thoughts.

Ted Gemberling

UAB Lister Hill Library

-----Original Message-----

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Deborah J. Leslie

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 11:23 AM

To: DCRM Users' Group

Cc: Sarah Hovde

Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

This is amazingly timely; I am preparing a query to DCRM-L (with pictures!) on this very topic. Stay tuned!

Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Senior Cataloger, Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> | 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu | orcid.org/0000-0001-5848-5467

-----Original Message-----

From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Laurence S. Creider

Sent: Monday, 23 May 2016 11:53

To: DCRM Users' Group

Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Publishers Personal Name/Corporate Body

Richard,

I am not doing any cataloging these days, so take my comments with a shovel of salt. Your note leads me to ask a few questions.  You say, "in view of the fact that we usually treat printers and publishers who use a personal name as persons rather than corporate bodies ...."  I agree, but is there something in the rules that is clear about this?  Every time we change cataloging rules, there is provision for previous practice, everything needs to be re-thought.  This is a problem when book historians, bibliographers, and rare book dealers do not follow the same rules catalogers do and certainly not with chronological synchrony.  This leads to what I call "code interference."

Second, why is there no 500 from the personal name to the corporate body?

Even if the rules were to forbid, common sense would call for it.

Otherwise, one ends up with split files.

Third, the three authority records for J.S. Virtue and Co., James S. Virtue (Firm), and Virtue and Company sound like they should be one record, or at most two.  Split files with a vengeance.

I wish you luck.

Larry

--

Laurence S. Creider

Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.

University Library

New Mexico State University

Las Cruces, NM  88003

Work: 575-646-4756

Fax: 575-646-7477

lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu<mailto:lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu>

Pobre Nuevo Mexico! Tan Lejos del cielo y tan cerca de Texas.--Manuel Armijo

On Mon, May 23, 2016 9:11 am, Noble, Richard wrote:

> In my new (and thankfully temporary) role as NACO Coordinator, I'm

confronted with a cataloger's new record for "George Virtue (Firm)".

Virtue

> was a publisher, for whom there is a personal heading that has served

for

> use in records for his publications:

>

> MARC nr 91022431

> MARC MWA eng rda MWA DLC

> NAME AUTHR Virtue, George, 1793?-1868

> NAME S FRM Virtue, G. (George), 1793?-1868 NOTE Fletcher, A. Scripture

> natural history, 1838: t.p. (George Virtue;

London publisher)

> NOTE Concise DNB (Virtue, George, 1793?-1868; published books with

> fine

copper and steel engravings)

>

> Relatively late in his career Virtue did use a corporate imprint

> "Virtue

&

> Co." or "George Virtue & Co.", for which one might wish to establish a

corporate heading. But in view of the fact that we usually treat printers

> and publishers who use a personal name as persons rather than

> corporate

bodies, is the following record at all useful or, as I think it may be, actually counter-productive, since it proposes an alternate corporate AAP

> for an established and much used personal name:

>

> 1102 George Virtue (Firm)

> 370  Ç,e London (England) Ç,2 naf

> 372  Publishers and publishing Ç,2 lcsh

> 4102 George Virtue and Co.

> 4102 George Virtue and Company

> 4102 George Virtue & Co.

> 4102 George Virtue & Company

> 4102 G. Virtue (Firm)

> 4102 Virtue (Firm)

> 670  Walks about the city and environs of Jerusalem, 1844: Ç,b title

page

> (London, George Virtue)

> 670  Coyne, J. Stirling. The scenery and antiquities of Ireland,

> 1843?: Ç,b engravings throughout text (London, Geo. Virtue, 26 Ivy

> Lane)

> 670  OCLC, May 20, 2016 Ç,b (access point: George Virtue (Firm) ; usage:

George Virtue, George Virtue and Co., George Virtue & Co., Geo. Virtue, G.

> Virtue)

>

> Obviously the treatment of the personal name as preferred name even

> for

publications with a corporate-style imprint won't wash; nor the inclusion

> of "Virtue (Firm)" as a reference, since that involves us with the

successor firm operated by James Sprent Virtue. And in any case the Virtue

> father and son were probably whimsical in the forms of their imprints.

>

> Note that there are also AAPs for J.S. Virtue and Co., James S. Virtue

(Firm), Virtue and Company [which is James S. Virtue]--three authority records that don't "talk" to each other, and Virtue & Company, Ltd. (an unrelated[?] c20 firm). I'd rather we didn't contribute further to this proliferation of AAPs, and I'm certainly disinclined to try rationalizing

> the rather messy situation that already exists, having many other

> things to do.

>

> Of course, another question is: does one want treat a person as a

> corporate body solely because the relationship with the resource is

> one that a

corporate body might have?

>

>

>

> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY BROWN

> UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187

> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU<mailto:Richard_Noble at Br%20%3cRICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>>own.edu>

>

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