[DCRM-L] many, many misnumbered pages

Wed Jul 17 09:29:20 MDT 2019

I take that back. 'C' is a drop cap and 'V' is a normal cap

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |

From: Deborah J. Leslie
Sent: Wednesday, 17 July, 2019 11:25
To: 'DCRM Users' Group'
Subject: RE: [DCRM-L] many, many misnumbered pages

Yes, that's what normal.

You might have been misled by the 'V' in CVmpliendo—it's a small capital, which although smaller than a normal capital, is still a capital.

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> |

From: DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Joan Milligan
Sent: Wednesday, 17 July, 2019 08:50
To: jcsherwood at law.berkeley.edu<mailto:jcsherwood at law.berkeley.edu>; DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] many, many misnumbered pages

Joan Milligan

Tue, Jul 16, 10:05 PM (10 hours ago)

[https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif]
[https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif]

to me
[https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif]

Thank you to Ted and Jessie for your explanations!

DCRM(B) Appendix G says to find letters expressed in the opposite case. Therefore, I needed to find words with a lowercase "v" in medial positions, which I did not do. I found the word “Cvmpliendo,” but Kathie pointed out it is actually “CVmpliendo.” (I get it, although originally I didn’t see it that way myself). After looking at several more pages, the only v's I see are in the initial position. Is that what you expected?

Joan

Joan Milligan
Special Collections Cataloger
University of Dayton Libraries
300 College Park
Dayton, Ohio 45469-1360
937-229-4075
jmilligan1 at udayton.edu<mailto:jmilligan1 at udayton.edu>

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1GejmyXl3tCC52UmjHWYRCDFOYdwflCHZ&revid=0B_XOks_ZMrT8SndJUzhwczZNNENjZW0xR2FkK2JDMFY3T0hjPQ]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:03 PM Jessie Sherwood <jcsherwood at law.berkeley.edu<mailto:jcsherwood at law.berkeley.edu>> wrote:
When I started studying Latin paleography with the late Virginia Brown, we got a table of Latin letter forms from Kirchner's Scriptura Latina libraria a saeculo primo usque ad finem Medii Aevi, which is very helpful in illustrating that U/u and V began as the same letter rendered in different scripts. The convention of using a v (the angular or pointed u, as it's often called) at the beginning of the word and u elsewhere is a somewhat later practice, and one I have seen more often in early modern print than in medieval manuscripts.

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 13:33, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu<mailto:DJLeslie at folger.edu>> wrote:
Joan, it's not a matter of modern vs archaic; it's a matter of which lowercase letterforms correspond to the uppercase V's. Since you're converting from upper- to lowercase, you follow the practice of the printer. In this pre-modern alphabet (i.e., no uppercase J or U), the lowercase letterform 'v' was conventionally used at the beginning of the word, while the lowercase letterform 'u' was used in medial or final position, regardless of whether the letter represents vocalic or consonantal use.

I'm curious about that 'Cvmpliendo'. Any chance you can snap a shot of that page?

Also, is this record RDA-compliant DCRM(B)?

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> |

From: DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] On Behalf Of Joan Milligan
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July, 2019 11:43
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] many, many misnumbered pages

Deborah,

First the pagination. It does not self-correct, so currently my 300 reads:
16 unnumbered pages, 334 [i.e. 323] pages, 29 unnumbered pages ; $b illustration ; $c 21 cm (4o)
As for the u’s and v’s, you are right, it is: TRATADO BREVE DEL DVLCISSIMO NOMBRE DE MARIA. Words on page [iii]: Cvmpliendo … con gusto … Reuerendo Padre…” Both the u’s and v’s are roman, medial, and used as vowels.
I think where I get stuck is that I have been thinking about the letters’ use in the words. I mean, clearly the typesetter has both u’s and v’s, so why use a “u” in “gusto” (a correct modern spelling), while also using it in the word “Reueredno” (Reverendo)? And why use a “v” in ‘Cvmpliendo” (Cumpliendo)? The use of the u’s and v’s are not consistent in my mind. Is that all irrelevant? Just transcribe according to the rules and stop overthinking?
Thank you for your help.=!

Joan

Joan Milligan
Special Collections Cataloger
University of Dayton Libraries
300 College Park
Dayton, Ohio 45469-1360
937-229-4075
jmilligan1 at udayton.edu<mailto:jmilligan1 at udayton.edu>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:56 AM Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu<mailto:DJLeslie at folger.edu>> wrote:
The rule of thumb in how to treat misnumberings is whether the misnumberings are self-correcting, and I can't tell from your description. If self-correcting, that is, if the misnumberings are anomalous and the last numbered page corresponds to the actual number of pages in the sequence, ignore the misnumberings in the pagination. A note may be made about the misnumberings, but is optional (unless a misnumbering represents the last page of a sequence).

However, I believe your book is OCLC #433778755, yes? Apparently the pagination does not self-correct, although their method in the 300$a is not the preferred way to record the fact that the last numbered page doesn't correspond with the actual number of pages. Review DCRM(B) 5B7.2.

You'll also want to re-check the UV in your title transcription. Be suspicious of all uppercase V's, and follow the practice of the printer for type classification (e.g., roman), use (vowel or consonant), and position (initial or medial). The conventional lowercase forms for uppercase 'V' for the time would be an initial lowercase 'v'—regardless of vowel or consonant—and a medial lowercase 'u'—again, regardless of whether it's a vowel or consonant.  Without seeing the title page, I'd guess it reads TRATADO BREVE DEL DVLCISSIMO NOMBRE DE MARIA, with corresponding lowercase forms of 'V' as Tratado breue del dulcissimo nombre de Maria, which is exactly how the Biblioteca Nacional de Espana has done it. Of course, you will add a 246 for the title with uppercase V's.

Thanks for asking the question, Joan, and I encourage more questions like these. No need to sweat things out alone!

Deborah J. Leslie, MA, MLS | Senior Cataloger, Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu> | 201 East Capitol Street, S.E. | Washington, DC 20003 | 202.675-0369 | orcid.org<http://orcid.org> 0000-0001-5848-5467

From: DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>] On Behalf Of O'Keefe, Doris
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July, 2019 10:03
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] many, many misnumbered pages

Joan,

At the American Antiquarian Society our standard note is:

Errors in paging: p. 15, 43, 46 misnumbered 51, 45, 47.

Eleven is a lot of misnumbered pages! To make the note more concise, if the errors are consecutive we’d note:

Errors in paging: p. 15, 43-46 misnumbered 51, 45-48.

Hope this helps.

Doris O’Keefe
Senior Cataloger for Rare Books
American Antiquarian Society
185 Salisbury Street
Worcester, Mass 01609
(508) 471-2145

From: DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Joan Milligan
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 9:54 AM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: [DCRM-L] many, many misnumbered pages

Hello everyone,

I need help in phrasing two notes in a more correct and sleek manner. For the first, I currently I have:
          Eleven pages missing: 62, 87, 235-242, 312.
But, the truth is, the 11 pages are not missing, per se, they are misnumbered. That is, the pagination is, for instance:
… 60, 61, 63, 64 …
… 233, 234, 243, 244, 245 ...

In addition, I have:
          Eleven pages misnumbered: 15, 43, 46, 49, 118, 119, 180, 249, 253, 255, 309.
That is, page 15 says “51”; page 43 says “45”; page 46 says “47”; etc.

Should all of this information be in one note?

Thank you,
Joan

Joan Milligan
Special Collections Cataloger
University of Dayton Libraries
300 College Park
Dayton, Ohio 45469-1360
937-229-4075
jmilligan1 at udayton.edu<mailto:jmilligan1 at udayton.edu>

--
Jessie Sherwood, Ph.D., MLIS
Associate Librarian
The Robbins Collection
UC Berkeley, School of Law
Tel: 510.643.1236
jcsherwood at law.berkeley.edu<mailto:jcsherwood at law.berkeley.edu>

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