[DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime?

Tue Feb 10 13:14:25 MST 2015

Could we clarify which translation of the Regula pastoralis is under discussion, that by Le Clerc (title beginning “Le livre …”, about 480 pp.) or that by Marsilly (title beginning “Le pastoral”, about 370 pp.)?  It would seem to be the latter, though the editions with Valfray’s genuine-looking imprint are of the former.

NB: It’s Valfray, not Valfrey.

There are various editions of both around this time, including a 1683 (and apparently a 1690) Valfray edition of the Le Clerc translation (see #819141128 and #458162377 for 1690; #458162373 and Google Books https://books.google.com/books?id=ufWpksL631QC for 1683).

The edition with “sur l’imprimé” appears to be of the Marsilly translation; why it would refer in a false imprint to an edition of a different translation is puzzling.

In any case, though the imprint following “sur l’imprimé” has to be taken into account, I don’t see that Lyon can be assumed as either place of publication or place of production (unless there’s other evidence).  Others will have to decide where to put the various pieces of the pseudo-imprint in the record.

John Lancaster

On Feb 10, 2015, at 1:36 PM, Laurence S. Creider <lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu> wrote:

> I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply to this query;
> you've all made useful comments.
> 
> My experience looking in WorldCat for "sur l'imprime" roughly parallels
> John's two-fold division.  Those that might be a pirated edition seem to
> have place and to use "sur l'imprime" as the sole imprint.  Legitimate
> editions give the imprint of the edition at hand and then say that this is
> "sur l'imprime" of an earlier edition, e.g.
> 
> A Paris : $b Sur l'Imprime, $c 1685.
> A Paris : $b Sur l'Imprime, $c Paris chez Claude
> Boudeuille,
> Paris : $b sur l'imprime Leyde chez L. Elzevier, $c 1661.
> Montavban, $b Sur l'imprime Paris, I. Garrel, $c 1682.
> [Rouen, France] : $b Sur l'imprime Amsterdam, Rouen chez L. Maurry, $c
> MDCLXX [1670]
> 
> Taking John's points, one would get a straight read of:
> Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey, rue Merciere, a la Couronne
> d'Or, M.DC. XC.
> 
> Which I think in MARC would look like:
> $a [S.l.] : $b [s.n.], ($e [Lyon] :$f Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
> Valfrey, $f1690).
> 
> More than one of the records in the Catalogue collectif de France, Base
> Patrimoine, simply record , 1690 (Lyon : P Valfrey), including a record
> from the Bibliotheque Municipale de Lyon (in OCLC, the version of the
> record in the BML's online catalog, says Lyon : Pierre Valfrey, 1690.
> 
> From my perspective, the problem with this approach is that it implies an
> edition published in Lyon by Valfrey in 1690.  The only evidence of such
> is the item I have in hand, so that this seems circular.  There is a later
> edition of this translation, but nothing earlier than 1690.  The later
> edition has a different extent, [32] 439 [459] p., as opposed to the [14],
> 370 p. of the one I am cataloging.
> 
> It seems to me that I have the choice of
> 
> 2. Sur l'imprime, a Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
> 
> or
> 
> 5. $a [S.l.] : $b [s.n.], ($e[Lyon] :$fSur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
> Valfrey ..., $f1690)
> 
> or possibly:
> 6. $a [Lyon?] : $b [s.n.], ($f sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
> Valfrey,$f1690)
> 
> or even
> 7. $a [Lyon?] : $b [s.n.], Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey,$d
> 1690.
> 
> At least, I feel reasonably comfortable eliminating 1, 4, and 5, i.e.,
> 
> 1) Lyon : Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
> 3) A Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690
> 4) as no. 3, but with a note that the words "Sur l'imprime" precede "A
>>> Lyon" on the t.p.
> 
> 
> At this point, I think I am leaning towards no. 6.
> 
> Anyone have any further suggestions?  I would like to get this done before
> I have to move to the RDA-compliant DCRM. :-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Larry
> 
> -- 
> Laurence S. Creider
> Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
> University Library
> New Mexico State University
> Las Cruces, NM  88003
> Work: 575-646-4756
> Fax: 575-646-7477
> lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu
> 
> On Tue, February 10, 2015 8:47 am, JOHN LANCASTER wrote:
>> In my experience, it’s used either for concealment (of a piracy or a
> work
>> that might get the printer into trouble); or legitimately, as an
> indication of authority (in which case the real imprint is given - as
> when
>> an American edition claims to be based on the latest London edition).
> In
>> any case, the one thing certain is that the publication information
> following the phrase is not the information pertaining to the edition in
> hand, though it’s sometimes (as in this case) designed to look as if it
> were.
>> 
>> John Lancaster
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm happy to play ignorant, and ask, "What does sur l'imprimé mean?"
> All
>>> I can think is that it's something like "based on the printed version",
> an indication of reprinting. In that case, as a prefixed qualification,
> it belongs neither to the place nor to the printer. But this could be
> altogether off the mark, for all I know.
>>> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>>> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>>> <Richard_Noble at Brown.edu>
>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu>
> wrote:
>>> Doesn't "l'imprime" refer to Valfrey?
>>> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
> 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
> folger.edu
>>> From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On
> Behalf Of Randal S. BRANDT
>>> Sent: Monday, 09 February 2015 12:00
>>> To: DCRM Users' Group
>>> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime?
>>> Hi Larry,
>>> I would use your option 2, and in fact have done so in the past. The
> phrase "sur l'imprime" seems to be grammatically connected to "A Lyon",
> so I would transcribe it as part of the place of publication.
>>> Randy
>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Laurence S. Creider
>>> <lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>> It has been a few years since I have actually cataloged anything, and
> would appreciate some help with an imprint statement.
>>> I am cataloging a 1690 French translation of Gregory the Great's On
> Pastoral Care.  The imprint reads
>>> Sur l'imprime,  [in small italics]
>>> A LYON,
>>> Chez PIERRE VALFREY, rue Merciere,
>>> a la Couronne d'Or
>>> [horizontal line]
>>> M.DC. XC.
>>> AVEC PRIVILEGE DU ROI.
>>> How should the phrase "Sur l'imprime" be recorded?
>>> Options (without keeping original punctuation and without diacritics) seem
>>> to include:
>>> 1) Lyon : Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690. 2) Sur
> l'imprime, a Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
>>> 3) A LYON : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690
>>> 4) as no. 3, but with a note that the words "Sur l'imprime" precede "A
> Lyon" on the t.p.
>>> OCLC offers examples of all of these, except possibly 4.  What am I
> missing in DCRM(B) or the examples?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Larry
>>> --
>>> Laurence S. Creider
>>> Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
>>> University Library
>>> New Mexico State University
>>> Las Cruces, NM  88003
>>> Work: 575-646-4756
>>> Fax: 575-646-7477
>>> lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu
>>> --
>>> Randal S. Brandt
>>> The Bancroft Library | University of California, Berkeley
>>> 510.643.2275 | rbrandt at library.berkeley.edu
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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