[DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime?

Tue Feb 10 11:36:06 MST 2015

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply to this query;
you've all made useful comments.

My experience looking in WorldCat for "sur l'imprime" roughly parallels
John's two-fold division.  Those that might be a pirated edition seem to
have place and to use "sur l'imprime" as the sole imprint.  Legitimate
editions give the imprint of the edition at hand and then say that this is
"sur l'imprime" of an earlier edition, e.g.

A Paris : $b Sur l'Imprime, $c 1685.
A Paris : $b Sur l'Imprime, $c Paris chez Claude
Boudeuille,
Paris : $b sur l'imprime Leyde chez L. Elzevier, $c 1661.
Montavban, $b Sur l'imprime Paris, I. Garrel, $c 1682.
[Rouen, France] : $b Sur l'imprime Amsterdam, Rouen chez L. Maurry, $c
MDCLXX [1670]

Taking John's points, one would get a straight read of:
Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey, rue Merciere, a la Couronne
d'Or, M.DC. XC.

Which I think in MARC would look like:
$a [S.l.] : $b [s.n.], ($e [Lyon] :$f Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
Valfrey, $f1690).

More than one of the records in the Catalogue collectif de France, Base
Patrimoine, simply record , 1690 (Lyon : P Valfrey), including a record
from the Bibliotheque Municipale de Lyon (in OCLC, the version of the
record in the BML's online catalog, says Lyon : Pierre Valfrey, 1690.

>From my perspective, the problem with this approach is that it implies an
edition published in Lyon by Valfrey in 1690.  The only evidence of such
is the item I have in hand, so that this seems circular.  There is a later
edition of this translation, but nothing earlier than 1690.  The later
edition has a different extent, [32] 439 [459] p., as opposed to the [14],
370 p. of the one I am cataloging.

It seems to me that I have the choice of

2. Sur l'imprime, a Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.

or

5. $a [S.l.] : $b [s.n.], ($e[Lyon] :$fSur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
Valfrey ..., $f1690)

or possibly:
6. $a [Lyon?] : $b [s.n.], ($f sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre
Valfrey,$f1690)

or even
7. $a [Lyon?] : $b [s.n.], Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey,$d
1690.

At least, I feel reasonably comfortable eliminating 1, 4, and 5, i.e.,

1) Lyon : Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
3) A Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690
4) as no. 3, but with a note that the words "Sur l'imprime" precede "A
>> Lyon" on the t.p.

At this point, I think I am leaning towards no. 6.

Anyone have any further suggestions?  I would like to get this done before
I have to move to the RDA-compliant DCRM. :-)

Thanks,
Larry

-- 
Laurence S. Creider
Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
University Library
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM  88003
Work: 575-646-4756
Fax: 575-646-7477
lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu

On Tue, February 10, 2015 8:47 am, JOHN LANCASTER wrote:
> In my experience, it’s used either for concealment (of a piracy or a
work
> that might get the printer into trouble); or legitimately, as an
indication of authority (in which case the real imprint is given - as
when
> an American edition claims to be based on the latest London edition).
In
> any case, the one thing certain is that the publication information
following the phrase is not the information pertaining to the edition in
hand, though it’s sometimes (as in this case) designed to look as if it
were.
>
> John Lancaster
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
wrote:
>
>> I'm happy to play ignorant, and ask, "What does sur l'imprimé mean?"
All
>> I can think is that it's something like "based on the printed version",
an indication of reprinting. In that case, as a prefixed qualification,
it belongs neither to the place nor to the printer. But this could be
altogether off the mark, for all I know.
>> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>> <Richard_Noble at Brown.edu>
>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Deborah J. Leslie <DJLeslie at folger.edu>
wrote:
>> Doesn't "l'imprime" refer to Valfrey?
>> Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |
202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www.
folger.edu
>> From: dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On
Behalf Of Randal S. BRANDT
>> Sent: Monday, 09 February 2015 12:00
>> To: DCRM Users' Group
>> Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Sur l'imprime?
>> Hi Larry,
>> I would use your option 2, and in fact have done so in the past. The
phrase "sur l'imprime" seems to be grammatically connected to "A Lyon",
so I would transcribe it as part of the place of publication.
>> Randy
>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Laurence S. Creider
>> <lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>> Folks,
>> It has been a few years since I have actually cataloged anything, and
would appreciate some help with an imprint statement.
>> I am cataloging a 1690 French translation of Gregory the Great's On
Pastoral Care.  The imprint reads
>> Sur l'imprime,  [in small italics]
>> A LYON,
>> Chez PIERRE VALFREY, rue Merciere,
>> a la Couronne d'Or
>> [horizontal line]
>> M.DC. XC.
>> AVEC PRIVILEGE DU ROI.
>> How should the phrase "Sur l'imprime" be recorded?
>> Options (without keeping original punctuation and without diacritics) seem
>> to include:
>> 1) Lyon : Sur l'imprime, a Lyon, Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690. 2) Sur
l'imprime, a Lyon : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690.
>> 3) A LYON : Chez Pierre Valfrey ..., 1690
>> 4) as no. 3, but with a note that the words "Sur l'imprime" precede "A
Lyon" on the t.p.
>> OCLC offers examples of all of these, except possibly 4.  What am I
missing in DCRM(B) or the examples?
>> Thanks,
>> Larry
>> --
>> Laurence S. Creider
>> Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
>> University Library
>> New Mexico State University
>> Las Cruces, NM  88003
>> Work: 575-646-4756
>> Fax: 575-646-7477
>> lcreider at lib.nmsu.edu
>> --
>> Randal S. Brandt
>> The Bancroft Library | University of California, Berkeley
>> 510.643.2275 | rbrandt at library.berkeley.edu
>
>