[DCRM-L] crazy signatures

[Noble, Richard]

Looks good to me; and thanks to Jane Carpenter for suggesting a good format
for subsitute signatures, in situations where transcription of the printed
signatures results in a messy and not very helpful formula. - Richard

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Schneider, Nina <nschneider at humnet.ucla.edu
> wrote:

> Richard,
>
>
>
> Thanks for these suggestions. First, yes, it’s 17, not 16, gatherings in
> 6’s—my mistake.
>
> I feel like using pi^4 in this statement is correct because the first four
> leaves are unsigned. The fifth leaf (and beginning of a new gathering) is
> 1. So, technically, this is more or less the same thing as pi^4  A-R^6  S^2.
>
>
>
> Here’s my new statement:
>
>
>
> Signatures: pi⁴ [1]-[17]⁶ [18]²; the first 3 leaves of gatherings [1]-[17]
> are signed continuously from 1 to 51; first  leaf of gathering [18] is
> signed 52.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nina
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 12:18 PM
>
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures
>
>
>
> To resolve any residual uncertainty in a reader's mind concerning a rather
> odd phenomenon (as in "I *think* I know what Nina means"), perhaps it
> could be phrased "first 3 leaves of gatherings 1-16 are numbered
> continuously from 1 to 51 (1,2,3,x,x,x/4,5,6,x,x,x/ ... /49,50,51,x,x,x);
> the first leaf of gathering 17 is numbered 52."
>
>
>
> Partly this is because the leaves aren't really "numbered
> continuously"--the numbering of leaves isn't actually continuous, but
> meaningfully discontinuous (it's bifolia that are being continuously
> numbered); but I don't think "numbered cumulatively" resolves the
> uncertainty any better, and introducing the term "bifolia" begins to remind
> one of origami concentration camp. Better to risk slightly ridiculous
> explicitness than to court uncertainty.
>
>
>
> Umm... It isn't [1]-[17]⁶ [18]²? Also, though it might seem odd to use
> "pi" in a formula that appears to be inferred throughout, I think it's just
> right in this context: the bibliographer's system is being substituted for
> that of the printer. There are good reasons why this system of "signing"
> was very little used ...
>
>
>
> FWIW: Is this perhaps an 18mo?
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Schneider, Nina <
> nschneider at humnet.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
> Thanks to Jane (and Richard and Joseph), here’s what I came up with:
>
>
>
> Signatures: pi⁴ [1]-[16]⁶ [17]²; first 3 leaves of each gathering are
> numbered continuously from 1 to 51; first  leaf of last gathering is
> numbered 52.
>
>
>
> Would this make sense if you were reading the description without the book
> in hand?
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 11:04 AM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures
>
>
>
> I like Jane's approach. It serves the formulary purpose quite elegantly,
> without saying (falsely) that the book is unsigned. The underlying
> principle is that one uses the printer's designations of gatherings *if* they
> are not confusing in the context of a collational formula.
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Carpenter, Jane <
> jfcarpenter at library.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
> Nina,
>
> I had a similar situation with parts of a 1520 Venetian Talmud—
>
> I gave the collation in brackets, and then in a note, explained that the
> first four leaves of each gathering were numbered continuously:
>
>
>
> Here’s the note as I wrote it:
>
>
>
> [part 4 (Nezikin), 8]: Avodah Zarah [1520]]: 97 leaves; signatures:
> [1]-[11]⁸ [12]¹⁰; final blank leaf [12]₁₀ wanting; first 4 leaves of each
> gathering are numbered continuously from 1 to 44; first 5 leaves of last
> gathering numbered 44-49. ‡5 CLUS
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 9:03 AM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] crazy signatures
>
>
>
> "Continuous bifolium numeration"--certainly as good a term as any--is
> obviously analogous to the direction numbering that one occasionally
> encounters in later books. Per Bowers one treats such gatherings as
> "unsigned", which is fine if they're isolated pi's or chi's; but because
> Nina's example is numbered in a way that could be used for reference, one
> searches for a way to incorporate the numbers into a formula.
>
>
>
> Maybe (I dunno) 1/2/3-49/50/51^6 52^2? Explanation will be required,
> whatever one does, and it could just as well be [unsigned, 1-17^6 18^2],
> which tells the structural story very neatly, but doesn't work very well
> for reference; and a formula that doesn't refer well doesn't quite fulfill
> its purpose.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Joseph Ross <jross at nd.edu> wrote:
>
> Nina,
>
>
>
> I seem to remember this as one of the unusual signature patterns of the
> manuscript period. The term that comes to mind is "continuous bifolia
> numeration."  There is no quire signature but the bifolia are numbered
> continuously from beginning to end.  It was not a common practice.  I don't
> remember if any printers used it.  Sorry I don't have any references I can
> quote.
>
>
>
> Joseph Ross
>
> Rare Books Cataloger
>
> University of Notre Dame
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Schneider, Nina <
> nschneider at humnet.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
> Another question for the advance bibliographers amongst us...
>
> I have in my hand the French translation of Hystoyre et plaisante
> cronicque. It is printed in 1793/4 (an II) in Paris. It is signed in such a
> way that I'm at a loss on how to record it.
>
> It starts off innocently enough: pi^4 but then this happens (and this is a
> page-by page recreation):
> 1,2,3, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 4, 5,6, [unsigned], [unsigned],
> [unsigned], 7,8,9, [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned], 10, 11, 12,
> [unsigned], [unsigned], [unsigned] ... 49, 50, 51 [unsigned], [unsigned],
> [unsigned], 52, [unsigned].
>
> Is there a way to capture this in a signature statement or do I just
> include the whole thing? Bowers is failing me.
>
> Chain lines run vertical. My uncut copy is 14 cm high.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Nina
>
> +---------------
> Nina M. Schneider
> Rare Books Librarian
> William Andrews Clark Memorial Library
> 2520 Cimarron Street
> Los Angeles, CA  90018
> (323) 731-8529
>
> nschneider at humnet.ucla.edu
> http://www.clarklibrary.ucla.edu/
>
> ** Please note that the Clark Library is currently CLOSED for our seismic
> retrofit **
>
> ****************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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