[DCRM-L] "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

[Gemberling, Ted P]

That's really interesting, the idea that Typis might mean "printing firm" by metonymy. That might explain the evidence Yang said she had found for it with that meaning. I agree it shouldn't generally be part of a corporate name. As I said on PCC, if someone actually put it above the door of their place of business, I might think differently. And sometimes we do know what people put on the door of their businesses, as in "Sign of the Boar's Head."

Ted Gemberling

From: DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 12:16 PM
To: DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

I think I agree if "typis" is used, except in this case, Archicoenobium Montis Casini would be a corporate body, so perhaps I would say "Typis" isn't part of the name of the entity (rather than say such names should be established as personal names).

I think "typi" really does mean the types, i.e. the equipment, even if by metonymy it might mean "printing firm" in some cases, so it seems strange to me to use the word as part of a corporate name. I suppose if "Typi" appears in the nominative case on the book ("Typi Archicoenobii Montis Casini") that would be an indication that the entity considered it part of its name.

On the other hand I'd say that a phrase such as "ex officina Gulielmi Young" does have a corporate body flavor to it and so I think would justify creation of a corporate body named "Officina Gulielmi Young". And "Ex typographeio ..." seems the same to me.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

From: DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>> On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 11:05 AM
To: DCRM Revision Group List (dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>) <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>
Subject: [DCRM-L] FW: "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

Forwarded by Deborah Leslie by permission of Yang Wang.

Even if typis translates to 'printing house' instead of 'with the type', the name should still be established as a personal name, right?
______________________
Deborah J Leslie (she/her) | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol Street, S.E. Washington, DC 20003 | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu>

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>> On Behalf Of Yang Wang
Sent: Friday, 6 December, 2019 09:58
To: PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

1) In early imprints, the nominative form "Typi" was not often used, but instances exist: Typi Ploetzianis, Typi seminarii, etc.

2) Sometimes a single printing house could vary the form of its name:
                Typi Archicoenobii Montis Casini
                Typis Archicoenobii Montis Casini
                Ex Typis Archicoenobii Montis Casini
                Ex Typographeio Archicoenobii Montis Casini

Evidently, they all point to the same entity. "Typi" cannot possibly mean "types" here, can it?

3) In his Manual, Allen translates "typis" as "with the types," apparently taking it as ablative of means or instrument. In Bob's list, however, we see that he takes it as ablative of source (from which)-a big difference; "type" is also a better translation (Web. 3, type, 3.a-b, using it as a collective singular).

4) The definition of typi  as "a printing house" is well attested and documented. It's new Latin (from Renaissance forward). Naturally, most Latin dictionaries do not have this entry, including TLL. This particular usage became wide spread after 15-16th century. In a title like Bibliothecae Bernensis librorum typis editorum catalogus, what does typis really means here"? "From the printing shops of" or "with types of"?

5) Allen should have listed "ex typis" and "typi" along with "typis" in his Manual. By singling typis out the true meaning of the word becomes obscured. As a result, some of us (library catalogers) have been reluctant to treat typis as part of a corporate name.

6) My source: Austrian/German Latin scholar Prof. Johann Ramminger. He is long-term contributor and editor for TLL and has spent last 15 years compiling his Neulateinische Wortliste (http://www.neulatein.de/, see "typus" definition 3.b). Furthermore, by clicking on the hyperlink excudo there, we see the phrase "nostris typis" (meaning "from our printing house" or "from my printing house"). BTW, in Wiktionary, someone added/edited the particular entry in 2004 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/typus).

Best regards,
Yang

P.S. The LC/PCC's instruction on how to establishing "Printer's widow" in NAF has found its way into PS on RDA 9.19.1.1<http://9.19.1.1>. On Monday, a colleague asked how to establish a widow's name from the statement "Typis Viduae Petri Jacobs" on title page. I thought it could be done as a corporate name: Typi Viduae Petri Jacobs. But a quick browse in NAF bewildered me, hence, the start of the thread of discussion.


From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV] On Behalf Of Deborah J. Leslie
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2019 5:43 PM
To: PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

"Typis" in imprints translates to "with the types." See, C.G. Allen's A manual of European languages for librarians (2nd ed.), 1999, page 159; also Glossary of common Latin terms found in imprints of early modern printed books<Glossary%20of%20common%20Latin%20terms%20found%20in%20imprints%20of%20early%20modern%20printed%20books> (thanks, Bob!).

Regarding the amorphous personal vs corporate nature of booksellers and printing shops in the early modern period, the RBMS Bibliographical Standards Committee issued a statement on "Rules for Establishing Certain Names Associated with Printers," which was adopted by LC as rule interpretations to AACR2 22.2 (for 'Printers' Widows'), and 24.1A ('Printers') for treatment of personal vs corporate entities. In short, if the name is presented as a personal name, establish it as a personal name; if a formal collaboration, as a corporate name.

I'm guessing that the 410 references were made to give as much help as possible to people who aren't conversant with the early modern book trade, or to the cataloging conventions that govern the formulation of their names.
______________________
Deborah J Leslie (she/her) | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 East Capitol Street, S.E. Washington, DC 20003 | djleslie at folger.edu<mailto:djleslie at folger.edu>

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>> On Behalf Of Adam L Schiff
Sent: Tuesday, 3 December, 2019 14:46
To: PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

Stephen:

110 2# Johann Traeg (Firm)

Adam Schiff
________________________________
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>> on behalf of Stephen Hearn <s-hear at UMN.EDU<mailto:s-hear at UMN.EDU>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 11:02 AM
To: PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV<mailto:PCCLIST at LISTSERV.LOC.GOV>
Subject: Re: "Typi ..." vs "Typis ..." for printing house in 110/410

My guess is that the "typis" instances (mostly in 410s) are a mix of grammatical errors by non-Latinists and references intended for non-Latinists who may be searching for the term as they found it on a source.

As for the second question--what is the proper way to handle a sole proprietorship, i.e., a person operating as a business? There appear to be lots of them among early publishers. As a person, the entity has an occupation. As a corporate body, it doesn't. As a person, the entity has birth and death dates. As a corporate body, it has activity dates. Name in inverted order for a person or direct order for a business? If I want to describe a person acting as a business entity in terms appropriate to a business entity, is there a preferred way to do that?

Stephen

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 11:15 AM Yang Wang <yangwang at princeton.edu<mailto:yangwang at princeton.edu>> wrote:
A quick browse of "Typi ..." and "Typis ..." in the NAF makes one wonder if there has been some confusion as regards which form we are supposed to use. The Latin word "Typi" (nom., plural) means "printing house." In most early publications, however, we only see Typis (ablative, plural), short for "ex Typis ..." = "from the Printing house of ...."

And, why are there so many such 410 references being used under 100, conflating business enterprises with individual persons? Should they be 510?

I cannot find any answers in RDA or PCC PS on either issue. Any suggestions or comments?

Yang


--
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
170A Wilson Library (office)
160 Wilson Library (mail)
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserver.lib.byu.edu/pipermail/dcrm-l/attachments/20191210/b63ab010/attachment-0001.html>