[DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format

Fri Jun 14 13:02:12 MDT 2019

Yes. Size designators should be in 852 $k, NOT 340

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:45 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
wrote:

> I saw one of those 340s (presumably added in batch) earlier today, and was
> not pleased. I know Jackie Dooley was on this list before her retirement,
> does anyone know if there is an OCLC employee currently subscribed and/or
> monitoring the list? I think this is worth raising with them (and
> requesting a deletion in the vast majority of cases).
>
>
>
> Honor
>
>
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Mark Seidl
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2019 2:39 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>
>
>
> I just want to second Richard's comment and offer my own institution,
> Vassar, as an example. In Special Collections, we shelve books by three
> sizes: folio, quarto, and octavo. These denote height and have only a
> coincidental relationship to the printing format of the books. Further,
> these distinctions don't appear in our records, except for "Folio" which
> leads the call numbers for books of that size.
>
>
>
> If I understand correctly Richard's remarks about the RDA 340 field, I'm
> bothered by the possibility of this size information ending up in records
> where it could be mistaken for printing format designations, which
> traditionally appear in the 300.
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Format = Spine height is not just in recon records. There seems to be a
> recently initiated program (centered I know not where) of wholesale
> insertion into OCLC records of 340 rda "format" fields, which are clearly a
> reversion to this ancient and (for rare catalogers) potentially highly
> misleading descriptive practice. It would seem to be a device for assigning
> shelving locations, which are in many places given as 12mo, 8vo , 4to,
> folio. This has nothing to do with the printing format, especially with
> respect to modern books which may really be e.g. 32mo in 8s or some such
> thing.
>
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__own.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=y9JYRk2qYT9ckksxuN1YvLlmI0e5kQb0Azya02E2fFg&e=>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:00 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
> It’s not uncommon to see a bibliographic format meaning spine height in
> recon records in OCLC. If the only/primary difference between the OCLC
> description and the piece in hand is a difference in bibliographic format,
> and no height is given in cm, I’ve found it worthwhile to check the public
> catalog of the creating library (in case they updated locally), or to
> contact the library to confirm.
>
>
>
> Honor
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Erin Blake
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:29 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>
>
>
> Something else to keep in mind is that the words used for bibliographic
> format can also be used for spine height. One of my prized possessions is
> an "old style" librarian's ruler that shows centimeters on the left edge
> and spine high terms on the right. See the "Same words, different meanings"
> section of the Folgerpedia article "Bibliographic format" for my attempted
> explanation:  https://folgerpedia.folger.edu/Bibliographic_format
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__folgerpedia.folger.edu_Bibliographic-5Fformat&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=D27RVllZjipF8kQnzyyb5LtZi6Fg6J4wpc_oLfyMcjU&e=>
>
>
>
> See attached for a photo of my beloved ruler!
>
>
>
> Erin.
>
> ----------------
> Erin Blake, PhD (she/her) |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare
> Library  |  201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |
> eblake at folger.edu  |  www.folger.edu
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.folger.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=5o9CMJ09HVQhFIUX_Bf8kJyF-27r671ffCyztB6pMi8&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:54 AM Mark Seidl <marseidl at vassar.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear June,
>
>
>
> Worry not--yours is absolutely and appropriate question!
>
>
>
> In my experience, dealers' catalogs/descriptions can be useful but also
> misleading. Some are excellent, others hastily thrown together. In any
> case, we catalogers need to treat dealer's descriptions with healthy
> skepticism. I always compare dealers' descriptions with my own collations,
> going with my own when I'm confident the dealer made a mistake. In short,
> always verify.
>
>
>
> As for your question about the OCLC record for a copy that resembles
> yours, I and, I think, others who post here would need to know a bit more
> about the copy you have.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps some.
>
>
>
> All best,
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM Rutkowski, June <rutkowsk at fas.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I am fresh off of Deborah J. Leslie’s Rare Book Cataloging course at the
> Rare Book School, and I have my first rare book sitting in front of me.
> It’s a French book from 1679.
>
>
>
> One question I have is about determining format.  The book dealer says
> it’s a 24mo.  The gatherings have 6 leaves each, the chain lines are
> horizontal, and the height is 13 cm.
>
>
>
> According to my chart a 24mo with horizontal chain lines cannot have 6
> leaves.  I’m thinking it’s a 12mo.
>
>
>
> There is a dcrmb record in OCLC for a 12mo copy that is very similar to
> mine (signatures and number of preliminary pages are different). 973455836.
>
>
>
> So, my questions are: how much weight does a cataloger give to a dealer’s
> description?  And, is the information I’ve provided here (gatherings of 6
> leaves, horizontal chain lines, height 13 cm) enough evidence to determine
> that my book is a 12mo?
>
>
>
> If this is an inappropriate question please be gentle with me.  I’m an old
> cataloger, but a spanking new rare-book cataloger, eager to participate in
> this community.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> June Rutkowski
>
> Cataloger
>
> Harvard Library Information and Technical Services
>
> Cambridge, MA 02139
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
> Vassar College Libraries
> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=COXzqK57kq0fL4kYieI6A0FmfDaxHgOkBNQWB_Xzj7o&e=>
> Gargoyle Bulletin
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=azrk0oLO2EM_LEwBA2MLxwToWdUWB08cFnuz_bGaqZM&e=>
> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
> Vassar College Libraries
> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=wjrlX5VwK2IxhVCA4zVdoZwHYXqARVrXdxKZAAho9B8&e=>
> Gargoyle Bulletin
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=syI8S9Kt2k3XeoeKmr8DAjDcXH6JEPBvPBcd3YD19JQ&e=>
> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
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>

-- 
Christine DeZelar-Tiedman
Metadata and Emerging Technologies Librarian
University of Minnesota Libraries
160 Wilson Library
309 19th Ave. S.
Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 625-0381
dezel002 at umn.edu

pronouns: she/her/hers
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