[DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format

Fri Jun 14 13:08:40 MDT 2019

I double-checked Bibliographic Formats and Standards and found that the 340
|m does, indeed, contain printing format. Even so, with this confusion
between format and height floating around, we'll need to be extra vigilant
to make sure format does end up in the 340 |m and size, as Christine points
out, in the 852 |k where it belongs.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:02 PM Christine DeZelar-Tiedman <dezel002 at umn.edu>
wrote:

> Yes. Size designators should be in 852 $k, NOT 340
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:45 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I saw one of those 340s (presumably added in batch) earlier today, and
>> was not pleased. I know Jackie Dooley was on this list before her
>> retirement, does anyone know if there is an OCLC employee currently
>> subscribed and/or monitoring the list? I think this is worth raising with
>> them (and requesting a deletion in the vast majority of cases).
>>
>>
>>
>> Honor
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Mark Seidl
>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2019 2:39 PM
>> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>>
>>
>>
>> I just want to second Richard's comment and offer my own institution,
>> Vassar, as an example. In Special Collections, we shelve books by three
>> sizes: folio, quarto, and octavo. These denote height and have only a
>> coincidental relationship to the printing format of the books. Further,
>> these distinctions don't appear in our records, except for "Folio" which
>> leads the call numbers for books of that size.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I understand correctly Richard's remarks about the RDA 340 field, I'm
>> bothered by the possibility of this size information ending up in records
>> where it could be mistaken for printing format designations, which
>> traditionally appear in the 300.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Seidl
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Format = Spine height is not just in recon records. There seems to be a
>> recently initiated program (centered I know not where) of wholesale
>> insertion into OCLC records of 340 rda "format" fields, which are clearly a
>> reversion to this ancient and (for rare catalogers) potentially highly
>> misleading descriptive practice. It would seem to be a device for assigning
>> shelving locations, which are in many places given as 12mo, 8vo , 4to,
>> folio. This has nothing to do with the printing format, especially with
>> respect to modern books which may really be e.g. 32mo in 8s or some such
>> thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>>
>> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>>
>> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__own.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=y9JYRk2qYT9ckksxuN1YvLlmI0e5kQb0Azya02E2fFg&e=>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:00 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It’s not uncommon to see a bibliographic format meaning spine height in
>> recon records in OCLC. If the only/primary difference between the OCLC
>> description and the piece in hand is a difference in bibliographic format,
>> and no height is given in cm, I’ve found it worthwhile to check the public
>> catalog of the creating library (in case they updated locally), or to
>> contact the library to confirm.
>>
>>
>>
>> Honor
>>
>> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Erin Blake
>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:29 PM
>> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>>
>>
>>
>> Something else to keep in mind is that the words used for bibliographic
>> format can also be used for spine height. One of my prized possessions is
>> an "old style" librarian's ruler that shows centimeters on the left edge
>> and spine high terms on the right. See the "Same words, different meanings"
>> section of the Folgerpedia article "Bibliographic format" for my attempted
>> explanation:  https://folgerpedia.folger.edu/Bibliographic_format
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__folgerpedia.folger.edu_Bibliographic-5Fformat&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=D27RVllZjipF8kQnzyyb5LtZi6Fg6J4wpc_oLfyMcjU&e=>
>>
>>
>>
>> See attached for a photo of my beloved ruler!
>>
>>
>>
>> Erin.
>>
>> ----------------
>> Erin Blake, PhD (she/her) |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare
>> Library  |  201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |
>> eblake at folger.edu  |  www.folger.edu
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.folger.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=5o9CMJ09HVQhFIUX_Bf8kJyF-27r671ffCyztB6pMi8&e=>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:54 AM Mark Seidl <marseidl at vassar.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Dear June,
>>
>>
>>
>> Worry not--yours is absolutely and appropriate question!
>>
>>
>>
>> In my experience, dealers' catalogs/descriptions can be useful but also
>> misleading. Some are excellent, others hastily thrown together. In any
>> case, we catalogers need to treat dealer's descriptions with healthy
>> skepticism. I always compare dealers' descriptions with my own collations,
>> going with my own when I'm confident the dealer made a mistake. In short,
>> always verify.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for your question about the OCLC record for a copy that resembles
>> yours, I and, I think, others who post here would need to know a bit more
>> about the copy you have.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps some.
>>
>>
>>
>> All best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Seidl
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM Rutkowski, June <
>> rutkowsk at fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I am fresh off of Deborah J. Leslie’s Rare Book Cataloging course at the
>> Rare Book School, and I have my first rare book sitting in front of me.
>> It’s a French book from 1679.
>>
>>
>>
>> One question I have is about determining format.  The book dealer says
>> it’s a 24mo.  The gatherings have 6 leaves each, the chain lines are
>> horizontal, and the height is 13 cm.
>>
>>
>>
>> According to my chart a 24mo with horizontal chain lines cannot have 6
>> leaves.  I’m thinking it’s a 12mo.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a dcrmb record in OCLC for a 12mo copy that is very similar to
>> mine (signatures and number of preliminary pages are different). 973455836.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, my questions are: how much weight does a cataloger give to a dealer’s
>> description?  And, is the information I’ve provided here (gatherings of 6
>> leaves, horizontal chain lines, height 13 cm) enough evidence to determine
>> that my book is a 12mo?
>>
>>
>>
>> If this is an inappropriate question please be gentle with me.  I’m an
>> old cataloger, but a spanking new rare-book cataloger, eager to participate
>> in this community.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> June Rutkowski
>>
>> Cataloger
>>
>> Harvard Library Information and Technical Services
>>
>> Cambridge, MA 02139
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Seidl
>> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
>> Vassar College Libraries
>> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=COXzqK57kq0fL4kYieI6A0FmfDaxHgOkBNQWB_Xzj7o&e=>
>> Gargoyle Bulletin
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=azrk0oLO2EM_LEwBA2MLxwToWdUWB08cFnuz_bGaqZM&e=>
>> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=b0RB8EsBJC8LZF3EC_hvPRGNqzFJTDCYIuHHuS9xSpA&e=>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Seidl
>> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
>> Vassar College Libraries
>> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=wjrlX5VwK2IxhVCA4zVdoZwHYXqARVrXdxKZAAho9B8&e=>
>> Gargoyle Bulletin
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=syI8S9Kt2k3XeoeKmr8DAjDcXH6JEPBvPBcd3YD19JQ&e=>
>> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=f3RpgsgQD-4fHw0E43WjnsklOdAXL-MFn6noPPIKOYg&e=>
>>
>
>
> --
> Christine DeZelar-Tiedman
> Metadata and Emerging Technologies Librarian
> University of Minnesota Libraries
> 160 Wilson Library
> 309 19th Ave. S.
> Minneapolis, MN 55455
> (612) 625-0381
> dezel002 at umn.edu
>
> pronouns: she/her/hers
>
>
>
>

-- 

Mark Seidl
Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
Vassar College Libraries
http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
Gargoyle Bulletin <http://pages.vassar.edu/library>
http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
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