[DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format

Fri Jun 14 13:44:51 MDT 2019

Should some formal-ish inter-organizational inquiry be made to OCLC Quality
Control, concerning the addition of and criteria for these 340s?

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Mark Seidl <marseidl at vassar.edu> wrote:

> I double-checked Bibliographic Formats and Standards and found that the
> 340 |m does, indeed, contain printing format. Even so, with this confusion
> between format and height floating around, we'll need to be extra vigilant
> to make sure format does end up in the 340 |m and size, as Christine points
> out, in the 852 |k where it belongs.
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:02 PM Christine DeZelar-Tiedman <
> dezel002 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> Yes. Size designators should be in 852 $k, NOT 340
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:45 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I saw one of those 340s (presumably added in batch) earlier today, and
>>> was not pleased. I know Jackie Dooley was on this list before her
>>> retirement, does anyone know if there is an OCLC employee currently
>>> subscribed and/or monitoring the list? I think this is worth raising with
>>> them (and requesting a deletion in the vast majority of cases).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Honor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Mark Seidl
>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2019 2:39 PM
>>> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I just want to second Richard's comment and offer my own institution,
>>> Vassar, as an example. In Special Collections, we shelve books by three
>>> sizes: folio, quarto, and octavo. These denote height and have only a
>>> coincidental relationship to the printing format of the books. Further,
>>> these distinctions don't appear in our records, except for "Folio" which
>>> leads the call numbers for books of that size.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I understand correctly Richard's remarks about the RDA 340 field, I'm
>>> bothered by the possibility of this size information ending up in records
>>> where it could be mistaken for printing format designations, which
>>> traditionally appear in the 300.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Seidl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Format = Spine height is not just in recon records. There seems to be a
>>> recently initiated program (centered I know not where) of wholesale
>>> insertion into OCLC records of 340 rda "format" fields, which are clearly a
>>> reversion to this ancient and (for rare catalogers) potentially highly
>>> misleading descriptive practice. It would seem to be a device for assigning
>>> shelving locations, which are in many places given as 12mo, 8vo , 4to,
>>> folio. This has nothing to do with the printing format, especially with
>>> respect to modern books which may really be e.g. 32mo in 8s or some such
>>> thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>>>
>>> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>>>
>>> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__own.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=y9JYRk2qYT9ckksxuN1YvLlmI0e5kQb0Azya02E2fFg&e=>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:00 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It’s not uncommon to see a bibliographic format meaning spine height in
>>> recon records in OCLC. If the only/primary difference between the OCLC
>>> description and the piece in hand is a difference in bibliographic format,
>>> and no height is given in cm, I’ve found it worthwhile to check the public
>>> catalog of the creating library (in case they updated locally), or to
>>> contact the library to confirm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Honor
>>>
>>> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Erin Blake
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:29 PM
>>> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Something else to keep in mind is that the words used for bibliographic
>>> format can also be used for spine height. One of my prized possessions is
>>> an "old style" librarian's ruler that shows centimeters on the left edge
>>> and spine high terms on the right. See the "Same words, different meanings"
>>> section of the Folgerpedia article "Bibliographic format" for my attempted
>>> explanation:  https://folgerpedia.folger.edu/Bibliographic_format
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__folgerpedia.folger.edu_Bibliographic-5Fformat&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=D27RVllZjipF8kQnzyyb5LtZi6Fg6J4wpc_oLfyMcjU&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See attached for a photo of my beloved ruler!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Erin.
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>> Erin Blake, PhD (she/her) |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare
>>> Library  |  201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |
>>> eblake at folger.edu  |  www.folger.edu
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.folger.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=5o9CMJ09HVQhFIUX_Bf8kJyF-27r671ffCyztB6pMi8&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:54 AM Mark Seidl <marseidl at vassar.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear June,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Worry not--yours is absolutely and appropriate question!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In my experience, dealers' catalogs/descriptions can be useful but also
>>> misleading. Some are excellent, others hastily thrown together. In any
>>> case, we catalogers need to treat dealer's descriptions with healthy
>>> skepticism. I always compare dealers' descriptions with my own collations,
>>> going with my own when I'm confident the dealer made a mistake. In short,
>>> always verify.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As for your question about the OCLC record for a copy that resembles
>>> yours, I and, I think, others who post here would need to know a bit more
>>> about the copy you have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hope this helps some.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All best,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Seidl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM Rutkowski, June <
>>> rutkowsk at fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am fresh off of Deborah J. Leslie’s Rare Book Cataloging course at the
>>> Rare Book School, and I have my first rare book sitting in front of me.
>>> It’s a French book from 1679.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One question I have is about determining format.  The book dealer says
>>> it’s a 24mo.  The gatherings have 6 leaves each, the chain lines are
>>> horizontal, and the height is 13 cm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> According to my chart a 24mo with horizontal chain lines cannot have 6
>>> leaves.  I’m thinking it’s a 12mo.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a dcrmb record in OCLC for a 12mo copy that is very similar to
>>> mine (signatures and number of preliminary pages are different). 973455836.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, my questions are: how much weight does a cataloger give to a
>>> dealer’s description?  And, is the information I’ve provided here
>>> (gatherings of 6 leaves, horizontal chain lines, height 13 cm) enough
>>> evidence to determine that my book is a 12mo?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If this is an inappropriate question please be gentle with me.  I’m an
>>> old cataloger, but a spanking new rare-book cataloger, eager to participate
>>> in this community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> June Rutkowski
>>>
>>> Cataloger
>>>
>>> Harvard Library Information and Technical Services
>>>
>>> Cambridge, MA 02139
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Seidl
>>> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
>>> Vassar College Libraries
>>> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=COXzqK57kq0fL4kYieI6A0FmfDaxHgOkBNQWB_Xzj7o&e=>
>>> Gargoyle Bulletin
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=azrk0oLO2EM_LEwBA2MLxwToWdUWB08cFnuz_bGaqZM&e=>
>>> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=u2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw&s=b0RB8EsBJC8LZF3EC_hvPRGNqzFJTDCYIuHHuS9xSpA&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Seidl
>>> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
>>> Vassar College Libraries
>>> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=wjrlX5VwK2IxhVCA4zVdoZwHYXqARVrXdxKZAAho9B8&e=>
>>> Gargoyle Bulletin
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=syI8S9Kt2k3XeoeKmr8DAjDcXH6JEPBvPBcd3YD19JQ&e=>
>>> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=gfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk&m=ZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o&s=f3RpgsgQD-4fHw0E43WjnsklOdAXL-MFn6noPPIKOYg&e=>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christine DeZelar-Tiedman
>> Metadata and Emerging Technologies Librarian
>> University of Minnesota Libraries
>> 160 Wilson Library
>> 309 19th Ave. S.
>> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>> (612) 625-0381
>> dezel002 at umn.edu
>>
>> pronouns: she/her/hers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Mark Seidl
> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
> Vassar College Libraries
> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
> Gargoyle Bulletin <http://pages.vassar.edu/library>
> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
>
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