[DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format

Sun Jun 16 18:46:00 MDT 2019

The format terms are variously understood; those who understand it as
something other than a convenient shorthand for size or number of leaves
surrounding a thread are probably in a major minority.

The assumption regarding the addition  of parenthetical format to the 300
under dcrmb is that it should be an educated and accurate identification of
the basic printing formula, regardless of complexities and anomalies having
to do with sheet size and the number of pages in a forme (the basis of
format), or the inevitable eddies in printers' workflow. This is the
necessary precursor to understanding which components of the whole book are
subject to variations of state that do not amount to a distinction of
manifestations.

What I have seen of 340 format fields clearly indicates that they are *not*
based on such analysis, and have  more to do with size (perhaps
exclusively) or to the number of leaves in a normal gathering, which even a
neophyte bibliographer knows not to be dispositive evidence of the  number
of pages in the formes. OCLC records that I deal with are are all too often
heavily overburdened with the detritus of multiple incompatible
functions--incompatible, that is, in the disposition to equate vs. the
necessity to distinguish bibliographical entities--to accommodate library
routines or commercial convenience. This is just another example.

I am now of the opinion that dcrmb and non-dcrmb records should constitute
parallel databases. In some cases--where the record ostensibly for a first
edition with hundreds of holdings has been encrusted with data from a
century's worth of reprints, reissues and obviously different editions
(e.g. ISBN's in records for late 19th- or early 20th-c. books)--I have
created a new dcrmb record for the thing itself: the existing record cannot
be reverted to a proper state by editing, largely because its attached
holdings cannot be reliably related to any one manifestation. Many of these
records have a plethora of 019s, some of which must have described
something quite different.

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu>

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 4:04 PM Jeff Barton <jpbarton at princeton.edu> wrote:

> A question prompted by Richard's comment about "Format = Spine height is
> not just in recon records."
>
>
> Are you referring to use of format in the 340 field only, Richard, or also
> possibly in the 300 Phys Desp field under $c, as the optional format
> detail, added in addition to size?  (e.g. something like "$c 10 cm (16mo)."
>   We/ I sometimes add that optional format info for 'early' books,
> sometimes in tandem with signature statement in a 500 note.
>
>
> I've always assumed it meant actual format (how the hand-press book was
> assembled), not shorthand for size.  But that might explain some odd format
> info I've occasionally seen in records I've seen or even exported from OCLC
> to add our copy-specific info to -- the format (or what I took to be
> format) can seem at variance with the book I have in hand.  As I recall
> I've also occasionally noticed that in ESTC records too, (perhaps only the
> tentative ones with notes about consulting an actual copy or comparing
> copies to see what's uniform, if anything).  I've found this puzzling, but
> use of format to indicate general size shorthand, not actual format, would
> seem to explain this curiosity.
>
>
> Thanks to all for raising this question and presenting context!
>
>
>
> Jeff Barton
>
> Cotsen Children's Library Cataloger
>
> Rare Books & Special Collections
>
> Princeton University Library
>
> jpbarton at princeton.edu
> ------------------------------
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> on behalf of Lapka, Francis <
> francis.lapka at yale.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2019 3:58:48 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>
>
> The RBMS Bibliographic Standards Committee is working with OCLC’s Jay
> Weitz on a separate project; and I think OCLC’s John Chapman is a
> subscriber to this list. I am happy to reach out to the two of them for
> more information.
>
>
>
> Francis
>
>
>
>
>
> Francis Lapka  ·  Senior Catalogue Librarian
>
> Department of Rare Books and Manuscripts
>
> Yale Center for British Art
>
> 203-432-9672  ·  francis.lapka at yale.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2019 3:45 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>
>
>
> Should some formal-ish inter-organizational inquiry be made to OCLC
> Quality Control, concerning the addition of and criteria for these 340s?
>
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fown.edu&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496182647&sdata=7x0NewU5WUTILEpk%2BrG3XuqmwaATU0zcFGIc8HHQ2HE%3D&reserved=0>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Mark Seidl <marseidl at vassar.edu> wrote:
>
> I double-checked Bibliographic Formats and Standards and found that the
> 340 |m does, indeed, contain printing format. Even so, with this confusion
> between format and height floating around, we'll need to be extra vigilant
> to make sure format does end up in the 340 |m and size, as Christine points
> out, in the 852 |k where it belongs.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:02 PM Christine DeZelar-Tiedman <
> dezel002 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes. Size designators should be in 852 $k, NOT 340
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:45 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I saw one of those 340s (presumably added in batch) earlier today, and was
> not pleased. I know Jackie Dooley was on this list before her retirement,
> does anyone know if there is an OCLC employee currently subscribed and/or
> monitoring the list? I think this is worth raising with them (and
> requesting a deletion in the vast majority of cases).
>
>
>
> Honor
>
>
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Mark Seidl
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2019 2:39 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>
>
>
> I just want to second Richard's comment and offer my own institution,
> Vassar, as an example. In Special Collections, we shelve books by three
> sizes: folio, quarto, and octavo. These denote height and have only a
> coincidental relationship to the printing format of the books. Further,
> these distinctions don't appear in our records, except for "Folio" which
> leads the call numbers for books of that size.
>
>
>
> If I understand correctly Richard's remarks about the RDA 340 field, I'm
> bothered by the possibility of this size information ending up in records
> where it could be mistaken for printing format designations, which
> traditionally appear in the 300.
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Noble, Richard <richard_noble at brown.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Format = Spine height is not just in recon records. There seems to be a
> recently initiated program (centered I know not where) of wholesale
> insertion into OCLC records of 340 rda "format" fields, which are clearly a
> reversion to this ancient and (for rare catalogers) potentially highly
> misleading descriptive practice. It would seem to be a device for assigning
> shelving locations, which are in many places given as 12mo, 8vo , 4to,
> folio. This has nothing to do with the printing format, especially with
> respect to modern books which may really be e.g. 32mo in 8s or some such
> thing.
>
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble at Br <RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__own.edu%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3DZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o%26s%3Dy9JYRk2qYT9ckksxuN1YvLlmI0e5kQb0Azya02E2fFg%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496182647&sdata=qvjLC86Z2o3bJzfHVJd%2FFbuN8QhXXdYYb1k4e8qBB2M%3D&reserved=0>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:00 PM Moody, Honor M. <honor_moody at harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
> It’s not uncommon to see a bibliographic format meaning spine height in
> recon records in OCLC. If the only/primary difference between the OCLC
> description and the piece in hand is a difference in bibliographic format,
> and no height is given in cm, I’ve found it worthwhile to check the public
> catalog of the creating library (in case they updated locally), or to
> contact the library to confirm.
>
>
>
> Honor
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Erin Blake
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:29 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Determining bibliographical format
>
>
>
> Something else to keep in mind is that the words used for bibliographic
> format can also be used for spine height. One of my prized possessions is
> an "old style" librarian's ruler that shows centimeters on the left edge
> and spine high terms on the right. See the "Same words, different meanings"
> section of the Folgerpedia article "Bibliographic format" for my attempted
> explanation:  https://folgerpedia.folger.edu/Bibliographic_format
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__folgerpedia.folger.edu_Bibliographic-5Fformat%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3Du2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw%26s%3DD27RVllZjipF8kQnzyyb5LtZi6Fg6J4wpc_oLfyMcjU%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496192651&sdata=f8wb9QahM3r3O6gBJVBy7iILRuQCfcDrd%2BiMUXYzViM%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> See attached for a photo of my beloved ruler!
>
>
>
> Erin.
>
> ----------------
> Erin Blake, PhD (she/her) |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare
> Library  |  201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |
> eblake at folger.edu  |  www.folger.edu
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.folger.edu%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3DZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o%26s%3D5o9CMJ09HVQhFIUX_Bf8kJyF-27r671ffCyztB6pMi8%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496202668&sdata=NteSKVyLliIZKcIjFhB2km%2F8lsZn%2FmDdgc9eb08%2FwQs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:54 AM Mark Seidl <marseidl at vassar.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear June,
>
>
>
> Worry not--yours is absolutely and appropriate question!
>
>
>
> In my experience, dealers' catalogs/descriptions can be useful but also
> misleading. Some are excellent, others hastily thrown together. In any
> case, we catalogers need to treat dealer's descriptions with healthy
> skepticism. I always compare dealers' descriptions with my own collations,
> going with my own when I'm confident the dealer made a mistake. In short,
> always verify.
>
>
>
> As for your question about the OCLC record for a copy that resembles
> yours, I and, I think, others who post here would need to know a bit more
> about the copy you have.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps some.
>
>
>
> All best,
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM Rutkowski, June <rutkowsk at fas.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I am fresh off of Deborah J. Leslie’s Rare Book Cataloging course at the
> Rare Book School, and I have my first rare book sitting in front of me.
> It’s a French book from 1679.
>
>
>
> One question I have is about determining format.  The book dealer says
> it’s a 24mo.  The gatherings have 6 leaves each, the chain lines are
> horizontal, and the height is 13 cm.
>
>
>
> According to my chart a 24mo with horizontal chain lines cannot have 6
> leaves.  I’m thinking it’s a 12mo.
>
>
>
> There is a dcrmb record in OCLC for a 12mo copy that is very similar to
> mine (signatures and number of preliminary pages are different). 973455836.
>
>
>
> So, my questions are: how much weight does a cataloger give to a dealer’s
> description?  And, is the information I’ve provided here (gatherings of 6
> leaves, horizontal chain lines, height 13 cm) enough evidence to determine
> that my book is a 12mo?
>
>
>
> If this is an inappropriate question please be gentle with me.  I’m an old
> cataloger, but a spanking new rare-book cataloger, eager to participate in
> this community.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> June Rutkowski
>
> Cataloger
>
> Harvard Library Information and Technical Services
>
> Cambridge, MA 02139
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
> Vassar College Libraries
> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3Du2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw%26s%3DCOXzqK57kq0fL4kYieI6A0FmfDaxHgOkBNQWB_Xzj7o%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496202668&sdata=Pc3Er5DTnni8vVTXDVwJtVocV14HVgBFTN2dyAQY%2FaA%3D&reserved=0>
> Gargoyle Bulletin
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3Du2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw%26s%3Dazrk0oLO2EM_LEwBA2MLxwToWdUWB08cFnuz_bGaqZM%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496212676&sdata=X3R%2Fh8GplF9Zer33Nhed0MADNYoT7hud9UkFbGjrSFI%3D&reserved=0>
> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3Du2kCy4rmLlifYSau3mLugGhb4QZPyPoOuPYelFoBCRw%26s%3Db0RB8EsBJC8LZF3EC_hvPRGNqzFJTDCYIuHHuS9xSpA%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496212676&sdata=CsGtADXQ6tHb1qBCemfmVbCVKn90nurasjnYCHhNXHo%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
> Vassar College Libraries
> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__specialcollections.vassar.edu_%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3DZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o%26s%3DwjrlX5VwK2IxhVCA4zVdoZwHYXqARVrXdxKZAAho9B8%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496222680&sdata=ZEENhuwgmU%2FwRY0GkIfP8voCEpmzHn39Vg8acL7wyBc%3D&reserved=0>
> Gargoyle Bulletin
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3DZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o%26s%3DsyI8S9Kt2k3XeoeKmr8DAjDcXH6JEPBvPBcd3YD19JQ%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496232689&sdata=BBJGbJKdrlNIYzzMXcJPPrwLPAEIvbfVGTskPLPT%2Fn0%3D&reserved=0>
> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__pages.vassar.edu_library_%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DWO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ%26r%3DgfxDZP5m9KyeWhmono1ADELcLUOEQEwGHybTpd5N2Wk%26m%3DZsE7-rtinnHIFfdVnhMOedq1xh1mjZFbliiTX9eSA3o%26s%3Df3RpgsgQD-4fHw0E43WjnsklOdAXL-MFn6noPPIKOYg%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496232689&sdata=uYH%2FmdXEuFVozYU3r3FYIV%2BFIRlc%2F3fcBUO03Z0oQdY%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Christine DeZelar-Tiedman
>
> Metadata and Emerging Technologies Librarian
> University of Minnesota Libraries
> 160 Wilson Library
> 309 19th Ave. S.
> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>
> (612) 625-0381
>
> dezel002 at umn.edu
>
>
>
> pronouns: she/her/hers
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mark Seidl
> Special Collections Librarian/Cataloger
> Vassar College Libraries
> http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fspecialcollections.vassar.edu%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496242697&sdata=FtyItdBj9U7f0NkDN2uudMWj4EoaYoYdhH5QtRCsBlI%3D&reserved=0>
> Gargoyle Bulletin
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.vassar.edu%2Flibrary&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496252705&sdata=tz8X3XQVcNKlht2RIVSOjTwETkMZAusbChwPccNq5YM%3D&reserved=0>
> http://pages.vassar.edu/library/
> <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.vassar.edu%2Flibrary%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cfrancis.lapka%40yale.edu%7C7ea0855d37dc4608754308d6f100e4d2%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636961383496252705&sdata=F5qXEGsUtJ1dMiQNVYhOIV1vkOvq0H4csSph9tajAmM%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserver.lib.byu.edu/pipermail/dcrm-l/attachments/20190616/f9f16d4c/attachment-0001.html>