[DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...

[Jeff Barton]

An interesting discussion!

Looking at the Printing & Pub terms now, I see there’s no gloss for either term.  (I know those are generally in progress so my point is not to find a fault, where none exists, but to point out a lack of guidance in for catalogers puzzling over these terms (as are a lot of us on this thread!)  What’s a poor, harried, overworked cataloger to do?  I’ll leave that question to wiser heads…

The distinction between “false” and “fictitious” really does seem to lead down the rabbit hole… What’s “fictitious” and what’s “false?”  Pooh Corner seems “fictitious” to me (I think), because no bibliographer (or adult reader) would think that’s a real place—would they?  Perhaps same thing, in this context, with Phila and Ephesus?  Would a book-buyer actually think the book was created in Ephesus?  So, I’d vote with “fictitious,” as I would with Utopia Wonderland, Narnia, etc.

I know Ephesus is a real place, but it’s a fabled one, like Byzantium or Constantinople, which some have claimed as places for their books or writings to (falsely?) claim authority or lend credence or authority to their publication or writing.

But suppose the imprint says, “House of Children” or something like that?  That *could* be *either* a nudge-nudge inside joke, or an attempt to disguise actual publication.   For a  pirated edition maybe? (e.g a “London” imprint actually issued in Dublin).  How can a cataloger know, without a side-career doing research?  Help!

OK, I made up “House of Children” above, but what about the following imprints from actual Cotsen Library books:

“Printed for Tabart and Co. at the Juvenile and School Library”

“Se vend chez Tabart et Co., a la Biblioteque d'Education”

“Sold by … and all other booksellers in Great Britain and Ireland”

“Juvenile and School Library” … ,”la Biblioteque d'Education,” “… all other booksellers in Great Britain and Ireland”?  How do we know if the first two are real places or production sites or not?  And is the  claim of “all other booksellers” at all valid, or just puffery?  (Maybe there are no other, or maybe just one or two other booksellers.  It’s hard to say.)  Yes, I know I’m talking about imprints, not places per se, immediately above, but I guess my broad question is are the places where these booksellers, printers, etc., claim to be sited on the TP, colophon, pub. advert., actual places or not?

I guess we need to think about and define terms like “fictitious” or “false”?   Maybe the distinction is somehow essentially about whether or not the intent (however we can get at that question) is to deceive, mislead, or confuse?  Pooh Corner doesn’t seem to deceive.  Nor I think does Ephesus?

But on the other hand, as someone already pointed out, in Reformation Europe a printer or bookseller might well want to murky the waters intentionally.  So a “Catholic” catechism or book printed in a Catholic country might specify location as “England,” or some Protestant country/city?  Or one printed and sold in England cite a foreign location and to also deliberately muddle printer / bookseller, location, etc… to avoid Walsingham’s boys paying a visit.  And vice versa for Protestant catechism or books printed and distributed in a Catholic country for distribution there?  Thus, a “false” imprints and locations?

Not sure if it would be false or fictitious if someone cited “Eden,” or the “Garden of Paradise” as places or “Sons of Adam” or “Daughters of Eve” as responsible parties?  But I’ll leave that question to others…

An interesting thread, this.  Sorry to have gone on for so long in my interest!

Jeff B

Jeff Barton
Cotsen Children’s Library
Rare Books & Special Collections
Princeton University Library
jpbarton at princeton.edu


From: DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Deborah J. Leslie
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 4:52 PM
To: jnelson at law.berkeley.edu; DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...

Well, in practical terms, there are separate RBMS genre terms for 'fictitious imprints' and 'false imprints'.

Deborah J. Leslie | Folger Shakespeare Library | djleslie at folger.edu |

From: DCRM-L [mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu] On Behalf Of Jennifer K NELSON
Sent: Monday, 17 June, 2019 16:21
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...

Is it because intent is important? For example, a book published at "Pooh Corner" - obviously meant to be amusing - and a book published in "Cologne" when the real pub place is Amsterdam, where the book is intended to be marketed to a Catholic audience, so the place of pub is important (during the Counter-Reformation at least). The first is fictitious, the second is false, and there is a difference in intentionality in the use of place

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:16 PM Robert Maxwell <robert_maxwell at byu.edu<mailto:robert_maxwell at byu.edu>> wrote:
No problem with your test. My practical question is, is there a cataloging reason why it is important that I determine that place X is fictitious vs. false, or vice versa? Will I treat the information in a different way depending on if it’s “fictitious” or if it’s “false”? 4B9 just has us copy what’s there and add in brackets the correct place if we know it.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

From: DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>> On Behalf Of Noble, Richard
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 2:09 PM
To: DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] False vs Fictitious imprints...

Practical (though perhaps supererogatory) reason: For the information of those who cannot satisfactorily resolve the test I suggested, whether from lack of knowledge or lack of confidence?

RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
<Richard_Noble at Br<mailto:RICHARD_NOBLE at BROWN.EDU>own.edu<http://own.edu>>


On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:02 PM Robert Maxwell <robert_maxwell at byu.edu<mailto:robert_maxwell at byu.edu>> wrote:
Aside from being an interesting discussion, is there a practical reason why it is important to label an imprint as “fictitious” rather than “false”?

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568


--
Jennifer K. Nelson, Ph.D., MLIS
Reference Librarian
The Robbins Collection
UC Berkeley School of Law
Berkeley CA 94720
jnelson at law.berkeley.edu<mailto:jnelson at law.berkeley.edu>
(510) 643-9709
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/research/the-robbins-collection/
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