[DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?

Wed Mar 3 07:20:47 MST 2021

Iris,

Your suggestions are good overall. There is an exception, though. The "c" with a cedilla does occur in Spanish (Castilian) as late as the mid-18th century. An example from 1589:

Nos los Inquisidores, contra la heretica pravedad y apostia en la ciudad y Reyno de Toledo; Obispado de Siguença [modern Sigüenza] y en los lugares de los Obispados de Avila y Segovia ... / Dn. Lope de Mendoça [modern Mendoza]

Another example from 1724:

Nos el Maestro D. Fr. Joseph Lanciego, y Eguilaz, monje del gran padre San Benito, por la Divina gracia, y de la Santa Sede, Arçobispo [modern Arzobispo] e la Santa Iglesia Metropolitana de Mexico, y su Arçobispado del Consejo de Su Magestad, &c.

All best,

Felicia

Felicia Piscitelli, M.M., M.L.S.
Associate Professor
Rare Book and Special Collections Cataloger and Italian Resources Librarian
Cushing Memorial Library & Archives
Texas A&M University
f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu

5000 TAMU | College Station, TX  77843
Tel. 979-458-7880 or 979-845-1951
Fax: 979-845-6238
http://library.tamu.edu

________________________________
From: DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> on behalf of O'Brien, Iris <Iris.OBrien at bl.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 7:05:36 AM
To: DCRM Users' Group
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?

Dear Erin,

I suspect the assumption that if something was printed in Spain, it has to be in Spanish might be more likely than the assumption that something that was printed in Portugal (e.g. Coimbra) has to be in Portuguese as I found at least one record in your catalogue for a book printed in Coimbra that is in Spanish (http://hamnet.folger.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=75489<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hamnet.folger.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=75489__;!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZb6XFiIQ0$>).
It might be easier to look at language markers instead.

If any of the following words or graphemes appear, the book is in Portuguese:
em (= in) [used before places; e.g. em Coimbra; em casa de)
na (=at) [e.g. na officina de]
ç (e.g. as in “licença”) (also used in French, of course, so this is not a marker for Portuguese by itself but only if the question is between Portuguese or Spanish)
universidade (=university)

If any of the following words or graphemes appear, the book is in Spanish:
En (=in) [used before places; e.g. en Madrid; en la casa de)
ñ (e.g. as in “año”)
universidad (=university)

Portuguese uses other graphemes that are not normally used in modern Spanish, e.g. ã, õ, ê, ô. However, the first two might have been used in an early printed Spanish text as symbols of contraction, so they are not very reliable if you don’t know the language you are trying to identify and I’m not sure whether early printed Portuguese texts would have used the latter two.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Iris

------------------------------------------------------
Iris O'Brien
Early Printed Collections Cataloguing and Processing Manager
The British Library
St Pancras
96 Euston Road
London
NW1 2DB
Tel.: +44 (0)20 7412 7731
E-mail: iris.obrien at bl.uk<mailto:iris.obrien at bl.uk>

From: DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> On Behalf Of Erin Blake
Sent: 02 March 2021 22:49
To: DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?

Thanks!

FWIW, I took a sample of 300 "Spanish or Portuguese?" and found the following places (all imprints are pre-1800):

Belgium:

  *   Antwerp
  *   Brussels
France:

  *   Perpignan
Netherlands:

  *   Amsterdam
Portugal:

  *   Coimbra
  *   Lisbon
Spain (none are in Galicia, as far as I know):

  *   Alcalá de Henares
  *   Barcelona
  *   Cadiz
  *   Cordoba
  *   Huesca
  *   Lleida
  *   Madrid
  *   Málaga
  *   Mallorca
  *   Múrcia
  *   Pamplona
  *   Salamanca
  *   Segovia
  *   Seville
  *   Toledo
  *   Tortosa
  *   Valencia
  *   Valladolid
  *   Zaragoza

______________________
Erin Blake, Ph.D.  |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare Library  |  201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |  eblake at folger.edu<mailto:eblake at folger.edu>  |  www.folger.edu<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072654081*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=obN403YiLnSAcSPhV5n5npcFuZUwgdVzlnZjkWjx2Ds*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbjF7ESO0$>   |  Pronouns: she/her/hers

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:34 PM Piscitelli, Felicia A <f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu<mailto:f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu>> wrote:
Caveat: I work a lot with early Spanish-language imprints, especially colonial-era Mexico, but very rarely with Portuguese. So I’m basing my comments on what I know.

I don’t know how much was published or printed in the province of Galicia during those centuries, but Galician would look more like Portuguese than Spanish, even though that province is part of (present-day) Spain.
Your hunch that that anything Iberian-looking from the Spanish Netherlands is probably Spanish, is probably correct.
Google Translate has its uses, but (IMHO) one should always take it with a pinch of salt.

I hope this helps somewhat.

Felicia Piscitelli, M.M., M.L.S.
Associate Professor
Rare Book and Special Collections Cataloger and Italian Resources Librarian
Cushing Memorial Library & Archives
Texas A&M University
f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu<mailto:f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu>
5000 TAMU | College Station, TX  77843
Tel. 979-458-7880 or 979-845-1951
Fax: 979-845-6238
http://library.tamu.edu<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flibrary.tamu.edu*2F&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072654081*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=cdows*2Bv*2B2ADDBYzNvRCOkUZsFNc1rliTJaypsPTSByg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbSA1oHy0$>

From: DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu>> On Behalf Of Erin Blake
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2021 3:20 PM
To: DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu<mailto:dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>>
Subject: [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?

I'm seeking advice from catalogers experienced with early Portuguese and Spanish imprints....

Our OPAC has a large set of "preliminary records" where the language coding is incorrect. These won't be shared outside our OPAC, and all have an Advisory statement<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ffolgerpedia.folger.edu*2FAdvisory_statements__*3B!!KwNVnqRv!Wa4h7keffTHBnzhTHonkgc7T3TtyzGOMbkxlQVEOr0LzhB54tw9-JSeE_Y4kle4ODNmj6zMlbr8*24&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072664030*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=pED5B1qnF*2Fx6yX36CD5enkF4RLr8hjA0a74eOQU8Bb4*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbu3Qbj2Y$> warning that they're not to be trusted, so the stakes are very low.

We're looking for a way that non-experts can make the language coding "reasonably okay".

Options include:

  1.  Assume everything in an Iberian language is in Spanish if published in what's now modern Spain, and Portuguese if published in what's now modern Portugal.
  2.  Use Google translate, even though it has a modern bias, in the hope that it's mostly okay for Spanish vs. Portuguese. [NB. this is how we discovered the problem in the first place: someone using Google Translate coded a whole bunch of 16th- and 17th-century Dutch as "Afrikaans".]
  3.  Code them all "Undetermined language", even though they're already narrowed down to "almost certainly Spanish or Portuguese"?
Also, is it unreasonably dangerous to code anything Spanish-looking that was published in the Spanish Netherlands (almost always Antwerp) as "Spanish"?

Thanks for any advice you might have!

Erin.

______________________
Erin Blake, Ph.D.  |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare Library  |  201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |  eblake at folger.edu<mailto:eblake at folger.edu>  |  www.folger.edu<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!KwNVnqRv!Wa4h7keffTHBnzhTHonkgc7T3TtyzGOMbkxlQVEOr0LzhB54tw9-JSeE_Y4kle4ODNmj9UHG0PI*24&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072664030*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=gsE0Tie1bU58r1nfo3cAhzGD4huKewdvFp6JsS8kXS8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbmJpowVs$>   |  Pronouns: she/her/hers

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