[DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?

Fri Mar 5 08:41:15 MST 2021

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I also heard from people directly, and I
think we're good to go now.

Cheers,

Erin.

______________________
Erin Blake, Ph.D.  |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare Library  |
201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |  eblake at folger.edu  |
www.folger.edu
<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2?domain=urldefense.com>
  |  Pronouns: she/her/hers

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 9:33 AM Goojer, F.H. de (Frits) <F.H.deGoojer at uu.nl>
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Spanish has definite articles: el, la, los and las.
>
> Portuguese has definite articles: o, a, os and as.
>
>
>
> Maybe this Will help.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Frits de Goojer
>
>
>
>
>
> Drs F.H. de Goojer | Informatie-/collectiespecialist: catalogiseerder
> handschriften en oude drukken; metadataspecialist | Information specialist
> early printed books and manuscripts | Afdeling Metadata & Acquisitie |
> Sector Collectie Diensten | Universiteitsbibliotheek Utrecht |
> Heidelberglaan 3, 3584 CS Utrecht | kamer 5.20 | Postbus 80124, 3508 TC
> Utrecht | tel. 06 41 60 25 14 | f.h.degoojer at uu.nl | www.uu.nl/bibliotheek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Piscitelli,
> Felicia A
> *Sent:* woensdag 3 maart 2021 15:21
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and
> 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?
>
>
>
> Iris,
>
>
>
> Your suggestions are good overall. There is an exception, though. The "c"
> with a cedilla does occur in Spanish (Castilian) as late as the mid-18th
> century. An example from 1589:
>
>
>
> Nos los Inquisidores, contra la heretica pravedad y apostia en la ciudad y
> Reyno de Toledo; Obispado de Siguença [modern Sigüenza] y en los lugares
> de los Obispados de Avila y Segovia ... / Dn. Lope de Mendoça [modern
> Mendoza]
>
>
>
> Another example from 1724:
>
>
>
> Nos el Maestro D. Fr. Joseph Lanciego, y Eguilaz, monje del gran padre San
> Benito, por la Divina gracia, y de la Santa Sede, Arçobispo [modern
> Arzobispo] e la Santa Iglesia Metropolitana de Mexico, y su Arçobispado
> del Consejo de Su Magestad, &c.
>
>
>
> All best,
>
>
>
> Felicia
>
>
>
> Felicia Piscitelli, M.M., M.L.S.
> Associate Professor
> Rare Book and Special Collections Cataloger and Italian Resources
> Librarian
> Cushing Memorial Library & Archives
> Texas A&M University
> f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu
>
> 5000 TAMU | College Station, TX  77843
> Tel. 979-458-7880 or 979-845-1951
> Fax: 979-845-6238
> http://library.tamu.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> on behalf of O'Brien, Iris <
> Iris.OBrien at bl.uk>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 3, 2021 7:05:36 AM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and
> 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?
>
>
>
> Dear Erin,
>
>
>
> I suspect the assumption that if something was printed in Spain, it has to
> be in Spanish might be more likely than the assumption that something that
> was printed in Portugal (e.g. Coimbra) has to be in Portuguese as I found
> at least one record in your catalogue for a book printed in Coimbra that is
> in Spanish (http://hamnet.folger.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=75489
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/hamnet.folger.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=75489__;!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZb6XFiIQ0$>).
>
>
> It might be easier to look at language markers instead.
>
>
>
> If any of the following words or graphemes appear, the book is in
> Portuguese:
>
> em (= in) [used before places; e.g. em Coimbra; em casa de)
>
> na (=at) [e.g. na officina de]
>
> ç (e.g. as in “licença”) (also used in French, of course, so this is not
> a marker for Portuguese by itself but only if the question is between
> Portuguese or Spanish)
>
> universidad*e *(=university)
>
>
>
> If any of the following words or graphemes appear, the book is in Spanish:
>
> En (=in) [used before places; e.g. en Madrid; en la casa de)
>
> ñ (e.g. as in “año”)
>
> universidad (=university)
>
>
>
> Portuguese uses other graphemes that are not normally used in modern
> Spanish, e.g. ã, õ, ê, ô. However, the first two might have been used in an
> early printed Spanish text as symbols of contraction, so they are not very
> reliable if you don’t know the language you are trying to identify and I’m
> not sure whether early printed Portuguese texts would have used the latter
> two.
>
>
>
> I hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Iris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Iris O'Brien
>
> Early Printed Collections Cataloguing and Processing Manager
>
> The British Library
>
> St Pancras
>
> 96 Euston Road
>
> London
>
> NW1 2DB
>
> Tel.: +44 (0)20 7412 7731
>
> E-mail: iris.obrien at bl.uk
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Erin Blake
> *Sent:* 02 March 2021 22:49
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and
> 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> FWIW, I took a sample of 300 "Spanish or Portuguese?" and found the
> following places (all imprints are pre-1800):
>
>
>
> Belgium:
>
>    - Antwerp
>    - Brussels
>
> France:
>
>    - Perpignan
>
> Netherlands:
>
>    - Amsterdam
>
> Portugal:
>
>    - Coimbra
>    - Lisbon
>
> Spain (none are in Galicia, as far as I know):
>
>    - Alcalá de Henares
>    - Barcelona
>    - Cadiz
>    - Cordoba
>    - Huesca
>    - Lleida
>    - Madrid
>    - Málaga
>    - Mallorca
>    - Múrcia
>    - Pamplona
>    - Salamanca
>    - Segovia
>    - Seville
>    - Toledo
>    - Tortosa
>    - Valencia
>    - Valladolid
>    - Zaragoza
>
>
>
>
> ______________________
> Erin Blake, Ph.D.  |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare Library  |
> 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |  eblake at folger.edu  |
> www.folger.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072654081*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=obN403YiLnSAcSPhV5n5npcFuZUwgdVzlnZjkWjx2Ds*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbjF7ESO0$>
>   |  Pronouns: she/her/hers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:34 PM Piscitelli, Felicia A <
> f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu> wrote:
>
> Caveat: I work a lot with early Spanish-language imprints, especially
> colonial-era Mexico, but very rarely with Portuguese. So I’m basing my
> comments on what I know.
>
>
>
> I don’t know how much was published or printed in the province of Galicia
> during those centuries, but Galician would look more like Portuguese than
> Spanish, even though that province is part of (present-day) Spain.
>
> Your hunch that that anything Iberian-looking from the Spanish Netherlands
> is probably Spanish, is probably correct.
>
> Google Translate has its uses, but (IMHO) one should always take it with a
> pinch of salt.
>
>
>
> I hope this helps somewhat.
>
>
>
> Felicia Piscitelli, M.M., M.L.S.
>
> Associate Professor
>
> Rare Book and Special Collections Cataloger and Italian Resources
> Librarian
>
> Cushing Memorial Library & Archives
>
> Texas A&M University
>
> f-piscitelli at library.tamu.edu
>
> 5000 TAMU | College Station, TX  77843
>
> Tel. 979-458-7880 or 979-845-1951
>
> Fax: 979-845-6238
>
> http://library.tamu.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flibrary.tamu.edu*2F&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072654081*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=cdows*2Bv*2B2ADDBYzNvRCOkUZsFNc1rliTJaypsPTSByg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbSA1oHy0$>
>
>
>
> *From:* DCRM-L <dcrm-l-bounces at lib.byu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Erin Blake
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 02, 2021 3:20 PM
> *To:* DCRM Users' Group <dcrm-l at lib.byu.edu>
> *Subject:* [DCRM-L] Clues for distinguishing between 16th- and
> 17th-century Portuguese vs. Spanish?
>
>
>
> I'm seeking advice from catalogers experienced with early Portuguese and
> Spanish imprints....
>
>
>
> Our OPAC has a large set of "preliminary records" where the language
> coding is incorrect. These won't be shared outside our OPAC, and all have
> an Advisory statement
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ffolgerpedia.folger.edu*2FAdvisory_statements__*3B!!KwNVnqRv!Wa4h7keffTHBnzhTHonkgc7T3TtyzGOMbkxlQVEOr0LzhB54tw9-JSeE_Y4kle4ODNmj6zMlbr8*24&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072664030*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=pED5B1qnF*2Fx6yX36CD5enkF4RLr8hjA0a74eOQU8Bb4*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbu3Qbj2Y$> warning
> that they're not to be trusted, so the stakes are very low.
>
>
>
> We're looking for a way that non-experts can make the language coding
> "reasonably okay".
>
>
>
> Options include:
>
>    1. Assume everything in an Iberian language is in Spanish if published
>    in what's now modern Spain, and Portuguese if published in what's now
>    modern Portugal.
>    2. Use Google translate, even though it has a modern bias, in the hope
>    that it's mostly okay for Spanish vs. Portuguese. [NB. this is how we
>    discovered the problem in the first place: someone using Google Translate
>    coded a whole bunch of 16th- and 17th-century Dutch as "Afrikaans".]
>    3. Code them all "Undetermined language", even though they're already
>    narrowed down to "almost certainly Spanish or Portuguese"?
>
> Also, is it unreasonably dangerous to code anything Spanish-looking that
> was published in the Spanish Netherlands (almost always Antwerp) as
> "Spanish"?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any advice you might have!
>
>
>
> Erin.
>
>
>
> ______________________
> Erin Blake, Ph.D.  |  Senior Cataloger  |  Folger Shakespeare Library  |
> 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003  |  eblake at folger.edu  |
> www.folger.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F-t5RCjRgpBtArRXC7R7_2*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!KwNVnqRv!Wa4h7keffTHBnzhTHonkgc7T3TtyzGOMbkxlQVEOr0LzhB54tw9-JSeE_Y4kle4ODNmj9UHG0PI*24&data=04*7C01*7C*7Cd3068df8e98a425aea4908d8ddcd8532*7C21a44cb7f9c34f009afabd1e8e88bcd9*7C0*7C0*7C637503222072664030*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=gsE0Tie1bU58r1nfo3cAhzGD4huKewdvFp6JsS8kXS8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KwNVnqRv!Ug4qFsjeEzIoOUXJpVD6Pq7MGNGNlXL6Q65IrTiSPByOFuQJiVWrNSGzvvUVPgIz8VZbmJpowVs$>
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